question on rules and regulations

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Kiani
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question on rules and regulations

Post by Kiani » June 24th, 2019, 7:38 am

Dear All

Kindly note that there are few questions regarding rules and regulations which I did not find in the USBC and the World Bowling so I thought that in order to have it verified for my self I share it with you:

1- Are their any rules regarding the Time limit for a player to get prepared on the approach?? or a player is free to hold the ball and stand on the approach?

2- Is their a rule that you have to hit your spare with your spare ball instead of your first ball???

3- How many Martial are their in a tournament? and who is usually the martial? and what would be their responsibilities?

I thank you for your kind attention and looking forward to hear from you.

Best regards
HAKiani

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Re: question on rules and regulations

Post by 2y2 » June 24th, 2019, 3:43 pm

Kiani wrote:Dear All

Kindly note that there are few questions regarding rules and regulations which I did not find in the USBC and the World Bowling so I thought that in order to have it verified for my self I share it with you:

1- Are their any rules regarding the Time limit for a player to get prepared on the approach?? or a player is free to hold the ball and stand on the approach?
Rule 11 – Forfeit - Delay of Game
No unreasonable delay in the progress of any game is permitted. If a player or team in a league or
tournament refuses to proceed with a game after being directed to do so by a league or tournament
official, the game or series shall be declared forfeited.


2- Is their a rule that you have to hit your spare with your spare ball instead of your first ball???
NO

3- How many Martial are their in a tournament? and who is usually the martial? and what would be their responsibilities?

There's no single mention to a martial in the whole rulebook, what do you mean by Martial?

I thank you for your kind attention and looking forward to hear from you.

Best regards
HAKiani
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Re: question on rules and regulations

Post by 44boyd » June 24th, 2019, 4:24 pm

I’d assume Marshal, as in tournament officials
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Re: question on rules and regulations

Post by boomer » June 25th, 2019, 4:12 pm

The delay of game question has come up in the 10-pin riddlers video series - there is no objective time limit. the meaning of "unreasonable" is really subjective. If someone is consistently taking a long time, get an officer (league) or somebody running the tournament to step in.

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Re: question on rules and regulations

Post by Kiani » June 30th, 2019, 7:17 am

Thank you all for pitching in

TO clarify some of the questions which are as follow:

1- Martial means the official the one that has the final verdict.

2- according to what I have gathered for the televised game the players only have between 20 to 30 seconds in order to get on the line and deliver the ball.

The whole question came up when on one of the lanes their were 2 women in the tournament on one lane, when ever the lady B did a double or a turkey the lady A would go to the lane official (not the "Martial") and would start to complaine that lady B was taking too long or she was not using the spare ball to get the spare instead we had to wait until her first ball comes back and so on and so forth,...

Lady A was playing a psychological game with lady B and at the end Lady A won with at least 50 pin higher in a 24 game series.

But still the main question remains regarding the time that you are able to pick the ball situate yourself on the approach and release the ball.

Also please let me know the officials ranking in the tournament from the Line keeper to .....

I thank you for your kind attention and looking forward to hear from you.

Best regards
HAKiani

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Re: question on rules and regulations

Post by bowl1820 » June 30th, 2019, 11:21 am

Kiani wrote:Thank you all for pitching in

TO clarify some of the questions which are as follow:

1- Martial means the official the one that has the final verdict.
The word in the context your using it is "Marshal" not martial.
2- according to what I have gathered for the televised game the players only have between 20 to 30 seconds in order to get on the line and deliver the ball.
Yes the "pros" on the Pba have a "shot clock" meaning a time limit in which to make a shot. But regular leagues don't have that it's not a usbc rule. Though a league could set one if they so choose.

As for a tournament it would all depend on that particular tournaments rules if there is one or not.
The whole question came up when on one of the lanes their were 2 women in the tournament on one lane, when ever the lady B did a double or a turkey the lady A would go to the lane official (not the "Martial") and would start to complaine that lady B was taking too long or she was not using the spare ball to get the spare instead we had to wait until her first ball comes back and so on and so forth,...
Lady B violated no rule, your not required to use a spare ball to pick up a spare. Waiting for your ball to come back is not violating any rule.
But still the main question remains regarding the time that you are able to pick the ball situate yourself on the approach and release the ball.
Unless a league/tournament sets a time limit, there is no specific amount of time situate yourself on the approach and make a shot other than common sense.
Also please let me know the officials ranking in the tournament from the Line keeper to .....
I don't think there is a set ranking list, it would probably just depend on the tournament and what the tournament director or association sets. The tournament director typically would be the top official though. As for any other officials like scorekeepers, line judges etc. their authority might vary depending on what that tourament director or the association there sets.
Last edited by bowl1820 on July 1st, 2019, 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: question on rules and regulations

Post by Kiani » June 30th, 2019, 12:02 pm

bowl1820 wrote:
The word in the context your using it is "Marshal" not martial.



Yes the "pros" on the Pba have a "shot clock" meaning a time limit in which to make a shot. But regular leagues don't have that it's not a usbc rule. Though a league could set one if they so choose.

As for a tournament it would all depend on that particular tournaments rules if there is one or not.



Lady B violated no rule, your not required to use a spare ball to pick up a spare. Waiting for your ball to come back is not violating any rule.



Unless a league/tournament sets a time limit, there is no specific amount of time situate your on the approach and make a shot other than common sense.



I don't think there is a set ranking list, it would probably just depend on the tournament and what the tournament director or association sets. The tournament director typicallly would be the top offical though. As for any other officals like scorekeepers, line judges etc. their authority might vary depending on what that tourament director or the association there sets.
Dear Bowl1820

I thank you for sharing the information and yes I meant "Marshal" my typing mistake.

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Re: question on rules and regulations

Post by boomer » July 2nd, 2019, 4:06 pm

To continue a bit - the 25 second rule for the pros (PBA rules 17.5, 17.6 and 17.7 in case anyone is wondering) has two pieces: For the first ball, the time starts when the opponent steps off the approach. For the second ball (and I'd assume the 11th and 12th frame balls) the time starts "from the time his or her bowling ball comes back to the ball return" - which means that NO spare ball is required. Time starts when their ball comes back.

And, as bowl1820 mentioned, these time limits are for the PROS - not for amateurs. There is NO LIMIT for amateurs, beyond a subjective "unreasonable" delay - which would obviously be more than the professionals' 25 seconds. . . well, I consider it obvious anyway.

So Lady A could be considered to be harassing Lady B - and should be notified of that. It's poor sportsmanship and should be dealt with as such.


As far as tournament officials . . . I'm not sure there is a set ranking of officials. I believe that is done by the tournament itself, but it should be something like this:

1. Tournament Director - head honcho, top dog. Main person organizing, running the show.
2. Tournament Officials - marshals, observers, etc. Their main job, honestly, is to keep things from escalating up to the Director.
3. Lane Officials / Scorekeepers - These would be on the lanes themselves, making sure that the rules are being adhered to. I've filled this role many times and it's fun. We try to settle disputes before they escalate.

I think this is typical - it's what I've seen. I think at Nats, this is mostly what they have although I think there are more layers (as you would expect in a tournament that massive) but the same principle holds.

I would have expected the Scorekeeper/Lane Official to have stepped in and told Lady A to settle down, she has no case. If Lady A keeps being snotty about it, the Lane Official should have brought in a Tournament Official to settle Lady A down. If it had gone to the Tournament Director, I would have expected Lady A to have been DQ'd and/or kicked out for unsportsmanlike conduct and/or disruption or something like that.

From what I've been able to find on bowl.com (the USBC rules for leagues as well as the tournament section) tournaments have a pretty wide leeway as far as what they can do and how they want to structure themselves. As long as lanes are set and there is order and the rules of play are adhered to, they don't really seem to care much. :)


(martial, marshal - LOL - once I figured out what you meant it was no big deal. :) )

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Re: question on rules and regulations

Post by Kiani » July 3rd, 2019, 8:22 am

boomer wrote:To continue a bit - the 25 second rule for the pros (PBA rules 17.5, 17.6 and 17.7 in case anyone is wondering) has two pieces: For the first ball, the time starts when the opponent steps off the approach. For the second ball (and I'd assume the 11th and 12th frame balls) the time starts "from the time his or her bowling ball comes back to the ball return" - which means that NO spare ball is required. Time starts when their ball comes back.

And, as bowl1820 mentioned, these time limits are for the PROS - not for amateurs. There is NO LIMIT for amateurs, beyond a subjective "unreasonable" delay - which would obviously be more than the professionals' 25 seconds. . . well, I consider it obvious anyway.

So Lady A could be considered to be harassing Lady B - and should be notified of that. It's poor sportsmanship and should be dealt with as such.


As far as tournament officials . . . I'm not sure there is a set ranking of officials. I believe that is done by the tournament itself, but it should be something like this:

1. Tournament Director - head honcho, top dog. Main person organizing, running the show.
2. Tournament Officials - marshals, observers, etc. Their main job, honestly, is to keep things from escalating up to the Director.
3. Lane Officials / Scorekeepers - These would be on the lanes themselves, making sure that the rules are being adhered to. I've filled this role many times and it's fun. We try to settle disputes before they escalate.

I think this is typical - it's what I've seen. I think at Nats, this is mostly what they have although I think there are more layers (as you would expect in a tournament that massive) but the same principle holds.

I would have expected the Scorekeeper/Lane Official to have stepped in and told Lady A to settle down, she has no case. If Lady A keeps being snotty about it, the Lane Official should have brought in a Tournament Official to settle Lady A down. If it had gone to the Tournament Director, I would have expected Lady A to have been DQ'd and/or kicked out for unsportsmanlike conduct and/or disruption or something like that.

From what I've been able to find on bowl.com (the USBC rules for leagues as well as the tournament section) tournaments have a pretty wide leeway as far as what they can do and how they want to structure themselves. As long as lanes are set and there is order and the rules of play are adhered to, they don't really seem to care much. :)


(martial, marshal - LOL - once I figured out what you meant it was no big deal. :) )
Dear Boomer

Thank you for the information.

Yes Lady A was doing all she could to come out on top which she did because lady B did not want to push the case with the officials.

(the moment I submit the content I thought that the word "martial" was an odd looking word but considering that I am doing this from my work my mind couldn't upload the error :lol: :lol: :lol: )
but thank you for your logical deduction.

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Re: question on rules and regulations

Post by boomer » July 3rd, 2019, 4:03 pm

Yeah - honestly, I wouldn't place the burden on Lady B. She was bowling.

But if Lady A was constantly complaining, I would put the burden on the lane official to whom she was complaining. If I were the one working those lanes (and they tend to be put in place of a group of lanes) and she was obviously trying to play mind-games or be unsportsmanlike, I would be calling her on it.

While the official format is to file a complaint, I considered it part of my role to keep things smooth and to settle minor disputes before they became more than minor. This became more than minor and actually changed the outcome of a bowling match.


For now - I'd ring the "Shame" bell (Game of Thrones reference" and call Shame Shame on Lady A. She may have won, but unethically.

I'd also play her game, were she to bowl against me and were to start. Literally, if she were to stand up near the ball return while I was bowling - it'd be a complaint. Were she to crackle a plastic bottle, I'd drop my ball. You want to game ME? With a massive grin on my face, I'll game you right back. I don't care what my score would be. . . she would NOT enjoy her experience. If the lane official wasn't doing his or her job, well, that leaves it to me to play it back her way. Which has happened.


There's a difference between this and crossing a line and messing up mine - that's absolutely legit. That's like doing a fianchetto or forking in chess. That's fine. It sucks, it messes up me, but it's the GAME.

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Re: question on rules and regulations

Post by spmcgivern » July 5th, 2019, 1:12 pm

boomer wrote:Yeah - honestly, I wouldn't place the burden on Lady B. She was bowling.

But if Lady A was constantly complaining, I would put the burden on the lane official to whom she was complaining. If I were the one working those lanes (and they tend to be put in place of a group of lanes) and she was obviously trying to play mind-games or be unsportsmanlike, I would be calling her on it.
I guess I am confused on what Lady A did wrong that would require any action at all. To take any action on the amount of time taken between shots would require something very obvious. If a bowler is on the lane taking their shots then it is hard to say they are taking too long. Now, if she went to the bathroom in between all of the shots, then maybe.

The pros do the same thing even with a clock. At the end of the game bowlers will take a re-rack to either get themselves to calm down or to give their opponent more time to ponder their shots. It has been this way for as long as I have been bowling. If a bowler is on a hot streak of shots, find something to get them off. Slow down, speed up, become more demonstrative on your shots, do something. If you play the passive, "awe shucks" mentality, you will be home in no time.

I am not advocating anything like bottlegate or something like that. But slow-playing (within reason) when your opponent is hot isn't something worth complaining for.

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Re: question on rules and regulations

Post by boomer » July 5th, 2019, 5:34 pm

spmcgivern wrote:
I guess I am confused on what Lady A did wrong that would require any action at all. To take any action on the amount of time taken between shots would require something very obvious. If a bowler is on the lane taking their shots then it is hard to say they are taking too long. Now, if she went to the bathroom in between all of the shots, then maybe.

The pros do the same thing even with a clock. At the end of the game bowlers will take a re-rack to either get themselves to calm down or to give their opponent more time to ponder their shots. It has been this way for as long as I have been bowling. If a bowler is on a hot streak of shots, find something to get them off. Slow down, speed up, become more demonstrative on your shots, do something. If you play the passive, "awe shucks" mentality, you will be home in no time.

I am not advocating anything like bottlegate or something like that. But slow-playing (within reason) when your opponent is hot isn't something worth complaining for.
So - Lady A = Complainer, delayer (due to constant complaining to officials), and staller when opponent was hot.
Lady B = hot bowler, on a streak

What Lady A did may be called gamesmanship, but is more poor sportsmanship, in my opinion. She didn't bowl her way to victory, she complained and stalled her way to victory. Essentially, she bottlegated her way to victory. . .which is cheap. SHE didn't slow-play, she caused disruption - at least that's how I read it. :)

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Re: question on rules and regulations

Post by 44boyd » July 5th, 2019, 8:13 pm

I’m not sure where you read it, but A was complaining about B being slow. Nothing else is provided, so a lot of assumptions being made.
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Re: question on rules and regulations

Post by bowl1820 » July 5th, 2019, 10:41 pm

spmcgivern wrote:
I guess I am confused on what Lady A did wrong that would require any action at all.
Lady "A" was the complainer, Everytime Lady "B" started getting hot throwing strikes. She would complain to the officals that Lady "B" was delaying the game by waiting for her ball to return instead of just using a spareball to shoot her spares or taking too long to make her shot.
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Re: question on rules and regulations

Post by spmcgivern » July 8th, 2019, 2:28 pm

bowl1820 wrote:
Lady "A" was the complainer, Everytime Lady "B" started getting hot throwing strikes. She would complain to the officals that Lady "B" was delaying the game by waiting for her ball to return instead of just using a spareball to shoot her spares or taking too long to make her shot.
I realize I misunderstood the original comments. I see now the complainer ended with the higher score. I was originally referring to bowler B who might have taken a long time to bowl.

Please disregard my earlier babbling.

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Re: question on rules and regulations

Post by boomer » July 8th, 2019, 8:39 pm

44boyd wrote:I’m not sure where you read it, but A was complaining about B being slow. Nothing else is provided, so a lot of assumptions being made.
There is more than just that.

Every time B would start shooting a string, THEN A would unjustifiably complain about B being slow.

This is why I said it was unsportsmanlike.

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Re: question on rules and regulations

Post by Kiani » July 10th, 2019, 9:05 am

boomer wrote:
There is more than just that.

Every time B would start shooting a string, THEN A would unjustifiably complain about B being slow.

This is why I said it was unsportsmanlike.
Dear Boomer

Yeah you are completely right

The Lady A would start complaining when the Lady B would start Striking the complain from the lady A to the officials was "Lady B is taking too long !!!" it was a mind game that Lady A played and won.

Is very much like the fight between Shan Rash and Bellmo (the water bottle noise) even though belmo said that it was not intentional but Shan never did forgave belmo.

The other day I was telling one of the players that no matter how good you are but if you can not control you mind and focus in the bowling you will lose.

Best regards
HAKiani

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