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 Post subject: Back swing problem the ball is facing Inside !!!
 Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:23 am Post Number: #1 Post
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Dear All

Kindly note that one of my friends is having a problem with her swing, when her swing is at its peak and coming down (the Back swing) her ball is tilted Inside and is facing too much of her back side, if it was outwards it would have been fine but is exactly the opposite.

I looked at her hand when standing on the approach and noticed that her hand position under the ball is cocked so I told her to hold her hand under the ball and if possible in cupped position and also wanted her to put a towel under her armpit so that she would through the ball as straight as possible and not in an angel, also I thought because of the back swing when she wants to release her ball the wrist is already turning too soon that is why her hand is not under the ball is actually on the side of the ball (her hand and feet position is between A3 and B2 from behind the heal of her shoes almost to the ankle of her foot it varies ).

the result was interesting the ball still tilts and faces the inside but not as much as when her hand was holding the ball in a cocked position, and also she started to through her ball constantly on the target because of the towel.

I am not a coach or anything that is why it would be highly appreciated if you all would advise me.

I thank you for your kind attention and looking forward to hear from you.

best regards
HAKiani


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 Post subject: Re: Back swing problem the ball is facing Inside !!!
 Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:40 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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Hello,

I didn't get the A3/B2 part. It would be very useful to have videos of her throwing so we could better help her because right now everyone has a different image on their heads based on what you've described. I can imagine her turning her hand on its way up so that she can be outside of the ball at the release point like a SUPER early turn. Maybe she needs to make foul line drill and one step drill focusing on hand position, her palm should be facing the pins at the moment of release, then again, it is only an assumption because I'm not seeing her trhowing the ball.

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 Post subject: Re: Back swing problem the ball is facing Inside !!!
 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:10 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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Kiani, 2y2 makes excellent points.

Yes please clarify what A3/B2 mean.

When practicing, have a piece of tape on the bowler's PAP

Being able to see her via video would be helpful
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... e_Coaching

Here is a thread dealing with the hand action.
Also consider coupling a backup drill with a foul line drill, then a 1 step drill

viewtopic.php?p=27351

Some progressive / graduated drills

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... ence_video


Remind your student to focus on the process and complete instructions of the drill. Drills divide a process into components, allowing one to hone one component at a time

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 Post subject: Re: Back swing problem the ball is facing Inside !!!
 Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:57 am Post Number: #4 Post
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Dear Kajmk & 2y2

I hope that you are all doing fine and well and wishing you the best.

Kindly note that I am re-writing this again because I saved it as a draft then I did not find the draft so sorry for my late reply, I was reading an article that divided the ball release into 3 zones which are as follow:

Zone A: (It is basically the early release and it starts from way behind the heal of the foot all the way up to the Heal of the foot)

A1- the ball is released way behind the heal of the foot (is almost dropped )
A2- is closer to the heal and not yet as far as A1
A3- the ball release is right at the heal of the sliding foot.

Zone B: (The ball release is from the inner heal of the foot all the way to the end of the inner arch of the foot / or the toe mound)

B1- the ball is released from the inner heal of the foot
B2- the ball is released from the inner arch of the foot
B3- the ball is released from the toe mound

Zone C: (the ball is released from the toe and all the way to the most extended release or in other words very late release possible).

C1- the ball is released from the toe section
C2- the ball is released about one writs from the toe
C3- The ball is released at its maximum hand stretched position.

according to the article the C zone is where most bowlers finish when they want to pump for more rev like Marshall Kent kind of style and also it gives you way more flat spot.

Also in order to clarify the ball position on the swing:

I my self always try to keep my thumb positioned toward the gutter so during my release it will work like a tight spring also I cup my hand all the way from start until the release which provides me a good amount rev but my friend her thumb is facing almost in front of her meaning that the tip of the thumb is pointing at the head pin and when she swings the ball is still in that position that is why her ball is facing the inside of her body (the ball is not facing outside like Tj and is not straight like Shawn Rash).

therefore when she is coming out of her back swing and into the release her hand is not cupped is not even crocked it just turns in a way like if she is holding a suitcase.

I will try to get a clip and send you.

I thank you for all your kind attention and looking forward to hear from you all.

Best regards
HAKiani


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 Post subject: Re: Back swing problem the ball is facing Inside !!!
 Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:42 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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Kiani, I'm concerned by the fact she is cupping her wrist. For most people, cupping adds tension to the arm, which is not a good thing.
Cupping your wrist even when holding nothing immediate flexes muscles up the kinetic chain. Put your opposite hand on your relaxed hand, then cup, then trace the tension.
Add weight and the muscles tense even more.

Questions we have not asked -
Does she use a wrist brace
What ball weight does she use
If she puts the ball in a ball sack and swings it, does her shoulder dip a lot perhaps indicating a possible weight problem?

Here is a recent analysis by Jim, look for the word "tension", look at the photos he included of some PWBA bowler's.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14346&hilit=Tension

You can find several other of Jim's comments about wrist cupping and arm tension, via the forum Search option, looking for word "tension", author jmerrell (his user ID).

Short video of two PWBA bowler's.
Note, YouTube has an option to reduce the speed of the videos.
Most of us do not have analytical software to allow frame by frame, add annotations and graphics.



Drills and explanation by Norm Duke





When debugging a process, sometimes eliminating variables can help in diagnosis.
Sometimes taking something out can actually improve the process.

Like 2y2 said, video/pictures could shed light on the problem.

Added this video as a guide to the muscles involved in wrist motion, planes of motion, strengthening exercises. Just submitted for awareness and possibly conditioning and not trying to make her a body builder :)

Norm Duke and Pete Weber and Verity Crawley, are certainly not body builders, I think most of us would like to approach their skills


Take care !

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There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em.

Desiderata

John


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 Post subject: Re: Back swing problem the ball is facing Inside !!!
 Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:56 am Post Number: #6 Post
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kajmk wrote:
Kiani, I'm concerned by the fact she is cupping her wrist. For most people, cupping adds tension to the arm, which is not a good thing.
Cupping your wrist even when holding nothing immediate flexes muscles up the kinetic chain. Put your opposite hand on your relaxed hand, then cup, then trace the tension.
Add weight and the muscles tense even more.

Questions we have not asked -
Does she use a wrist brace
What ball weight does she use
If she puts the ball in a ball sack and swings it, does her shoulder dip a lot perhaps indicating a possible weight problem?

Here is a recent analysis by Jim, look for the word "tension", look at the photos he included of some PWBA bowler's.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14346&hilit=Tension

You can find several other of Jim's comments about wrist cupping and arm tension, via the forum Search option, looking for word "tension", author jmerrell (his user ID).

Short video of two PWBA bowler's.
Note, YouTube has an option to reduce the speed of the videos.
Most of us do not have analytical software to allow frame by frame, add annotations and graphics.



Drills and explanation by Norm Duke





When debugging a process, sometimes eliminating variables can help in diagnosis.
Sometimes taking something out can actually improve the process.

Like 2y2 said, video/pictures could shed light on the problem.

Added this video as a guide to the muscles involved in wrist motion, planes of motion, strengthening exercises. Just submitted for awareness and possibly conditioning and not trying to make her a body builder :)

Norm Duke and Pete Weber and Verity Crawley, are certainly not body builders, I think most of us would like to approach their skills


Take care !


Dear Kajmk

I just can not thank you enough for the information and attention that you given to this.

Kindly note that I will need time to do the following if it is ok with you:

1- I will get the video in 3 different angles (front, back and side) so you can analyze on it
2- we will start practicing "Un-tensioning" ourselves and as you mentioned to eliminate variables and find the core of the problem (also reminded me of a Japanese saying that "when you are lost start from the beginning.")

from the second part mentioned above we will let you know when and where we hit the wall.

I thank you again for everything and wishing you all the best.

regards
HAKiani


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 Post subject: Re: Back swing problem the ball is facing Inside !!!
 Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:01 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Kiani, your mention of the example of Japanese wisdom you offered reminds me of an old Russian proverb, "Trust but verify".

Don't take things at face value, think them through and be sure they make sense.
Also, remember to video record yourself and your friend, maintain an archive for comparison.
Athletes can have ebbs and flows in performance. Use the video to see what is different.

As 2y2 mentioned, videos will help in analysis.
Once your videos are viewed, better eyes and minds than mine will no doubt offer concise
advice.

My responses are in the form of resources for consideration.

One of my "jokes" is that if an athlete is doing something that contradicts accepted and recommended practices but despite that, performs very well, that is called a Style, if the athlete performs poorly, that is called a Flaw. Or in simpler terms, "don't fix things that are not broken". ;)
Many of the elite professional bowler's we see are blessed with talent and abilities the majority of us do not have. Always take that in to consideration.
Remember the old Roman saying "Find a way, or invent one".

Take care.

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It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.

There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em.

Desiderata

John


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