Struggling To Adapt To Two Handed

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RobPina1991
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Struggling To Adapt To Two Handed

Post by RobPina1991 » May 20th, 2019, 7:02 pm

Hello,

I posted this in the certified coaching forum as well but am also leaving it here as any advice would be really useful. Due to a health condition that causes inflammation in my joints (i.e. thumb), I was forced to switch to the two handed style of bowling. I really have no idea what I'm doing and I'm struggling to get much consistency and much of any speed. I apologize for the poor quality of the video but I hope it gives a rough idea of my awful form. I appreciate any help.

Best,
Rob

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Struggling To Adapt To Two Handed

Post by RobPina1991 » May 20th, 2019, 11:41 pm

Anyone? or should I just give it up :lol: :lol:

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EricHartwell
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Re: Struggling To Adapt To Two Handed

Post by EricHartwell » May 21st, 2019, 12:02 am

While I am not a coach, just a life long student of the game, I have some thoughts.

What pound ball are you using?

It may benefit you to use a lighter ball for speed training. The body needs to learn how to move fast enough to be able to gain ball speed.

As for the certified coaching section side view video is needed as well as the view from behind to properly analyse your approach and release.

Check out this link to figure out your release specs. Normally used for determining layouts the information can also be utilized to evaluate your progress in developing good ball roll characteristics.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=373" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

While you are at the beginning of learning the no thumb release find your PAP and analyse your ball roll. As you make changes to your release remeasuring your PAP will be necessary.
Knowing tilt, rotation, speed and revs will help you develop your ball roll.
I have attempted the no thumb release but the resulting ball roll was terrible. Negative tilt, low rotation lack of ball speed, etc. Those feeble attempts discouraged me from trying further. I had no other reason other than to try. If I had to adopt that kind of change I would work on finding near optimum release specs as far as tilt and rotation targeting medium tilt and rotation then work on speed and revolutions.

Search Jason Belmonte on youtube study his approach.
Search the coaching section for others that have had analysis done. Take note of the positions that are shown in the explanations.
Video yourself often to compare how you are measuring up.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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Re: Struggling To Adapt To Two Handed

Post by gunso » May 21st, 2019, 12:12 am

If you study the two handers you'll notice that there is no one right way of doing it.

First thing first is figure out what is comfortable for you in how you can naturally get to the line. Find your own rhythm and work from there.

Drills are a great way of getting better but I'd suggest for the first few months you try and enjoy it and just throw the ball without overthinking it. Speed comes from the legs and try not to come so much around it. Go more through it than around it is the thought process

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Re: Struggling To Adapt To Two Handed

Post by RobPina1991 » May 21st, 2019, 2:09 am

EricHartwell wrote:While I am not a coach, just a life long student of the game, I have some thoughts.

What pound ball are you using?

It may benefit you to use a lighter ball for speed training. The body needs to learn how to move fast enough to be able to gain ball speed.

As for the certified coaching section side view video is needed as well as the view from behind to properly analyse your approach and release.

Check out this link to figure out your release specs. Normally used for determining layouts the information can also be utilized to evaluate your progress in developing good ball roll characteristics.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=373" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

While you are at the beginning of learning the no thumb release find your PAP and analyse your ball roll. As you make changes to your release remeasuring your PAP will be necessary.
Knowing tilt, rotation, speed and revs will help you develop your ball roll.
I have attempted the no thumb release but the resulting ball roll was terrible. Negative tilt, low rotation lack of ball speed, etc. Those feeble attempts discouraged me from trying further. I had no other reason other than to try. If I had to adopt that kind of change I would work on finding near optimum release specs as far as tilt and rotation targeting medium tilt and rotation then work on speed and revolutions.

Search Jason Belmonte on youtube study his approach.
Search the coaching section for others that have had analysis done. Take note of the positions that are shown in the explanations.
Video yourself often to compare how you are measuring up.
Thanks. The ball is 15 lbs. I agree that I would have benefitted from something lighter but funds are tight and I really didn't want to end up drilling another ball a couple months down the line. I am noticing that my ball speed is slowly creeping up, even though it is still incredibly slow. My first session with the ball about two weeks ago, I could barely even get the ball up over 10 mph without feeling like I was going to trip over myself. Yesterday I was more in the 13 mph range. It's progress, I suppose.

I've watched a lot of Belmonte and implementing his big step to the left before the skip has been very helpful in allowing me to clear out of the way. The issue I seem to be having now is really finding a swing plane. If I try to drop the ball into the swing before taking the step to the left (like Belmonte does) I end up getting way off timing wise. So, I'm basically taking two steps without moving the ball, pulling it back during the third step to the left, finishing the backswing on the fourth step, and then releasing on the fifth step.

I also just feel like my form looks quite strange, especially the backswing. But, perhaps I'm overanalyzing it. Unfortunately, I don't have a choice but to make the change so it's rather frustrating feeling like a doufous and barely breaking 100 when I was a half decent one handed bowler.

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Re: Struggling To Adapt To Two Handed

Post by RobPina1991 » May 21st, 2019, 2:12 am

gunso wrote:If you study the two handers you'll notice that there is no one right way of doing it.

First thing first is figure out what is comfortable for you in how you can naturally get to the line. Find your own rhythm and work from there.

Drills are a great way of getting better but I'd suggest for the first few months you try and enjoy it and just throw the ball without overthinking it. Speed comes from the legs and try not to come so much around it. Go more through it than around it is the thought process
Thanks. I agree, my speed has definitely increased over the three or so sessions I've done. I do get the sense that I just have to feel it out, as drills might seriously confuse me. That said, I'm hoping if there's anything glaringly problematic with the basics someone will point it out so I don't have to fix it down the road.

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Re: Struggling To Adapt To Two Handed

Post by kajmk » May 21st, 2019, 3:56 pm

Rob, welcome to Bowling Chat.

Relax, none of this is intuitive. Have a plan and patience. Don't worry about scores.
Develop the process, focus on form and glide to where you need to lay down the ball.
Quantify a board where you want to finish. When you deliver the ball, post your shot watching the ball thru the pins, then look down at your foot, what board, if you are not there, figure out why and adjust. Ron Clifton's article "Kickball for strikes and spares, is a good thought process.
To start, connect imaginary dots from foul line laydown to a nearby target to a focal point at the pin deck, roll a straight ball to the focal point.
Hooking a ball without your thumb is easy but accuracy is king.



I believe Jim Merrell and TonyPR are at a Kegel Two Handed Bowlers "seminar"
Tony Coachs 2 handers, his daughter is one. Tony is knowledgeable and helpful. Jim, well Jim is our Guru, unselfish and very skilled. Jim could very easily teach or mentor would be Coachs, he is as could as they come. At some point you may get a reply from them.

Note well that Jim uses video analysis and attaches annotated pictures with helpful graphics, showing angles, distances, height and other spacial dimensions.
Being able to break down video, frame by frame is a good tool, many active coachs would benefit from those tools.

If you view via youtube you can slow speed down in the playback settings option.
Sport action is very fast, use slow motion as a tool.



This may be a "work in progress reply".
In essence a draft.

I've been out of bowling for between 10-15 years.
I certified up to Silver level about 2003.
Note, the certification was merely lecture, some video, a test. The test was easy.
Almost no on lane lab work with people or otherwise, an EGREGIOUS shortcoming at that juncture, in my opinion.

I've never coached anyone as I'm not good enough. Though I might offer an opinion, I'm strictly amateur.
Opinion, USBC does not train or groom coaches.
ETBF is by far SUPERIOR. We should follow their example!!!



To an extent, Coachs are born, they have innate powers of observation, powers to deduce cause and effect, meld technique according to the athlete.


I know I'm repeating some things already said.
I'm going to float some: opinions examples and observations.
Make sure any suggestions make sense to you.

Whatever you practice and repeat will become habit. It's ok to be unique as long as you like the results.


Without a ball. Train yourself on the footwork first: Posture, cadence, nature of steps.
Use the tools of comparison and contrast as guidelines. Consider body type.
Opinion, your footwork needs tweaking. Straightening, narrowing, lubrication ...

You are learning something new, divide and conquer, break it into parts, develope the parts, assemble the parts.

---- begin sandbox notes ----


Initial cobbled notes

You mentioned speed as an area of concern.

I'm sure it's been mentioned that in EVERY style of bowling where steps are taken, foot speed is a major component. Marshall Holman practically ran to the foul line.
Marshall's style was unique.
See Cybervision video
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... sion_Tapes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These links are from the Coaching section of the wiki


Annotated video analysis by Jim Merrell

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... y_elements" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Keeping head over ball during entire approach, regardless of style
Look at the pictures of Malik bowling in Jim's post.


viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1052" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Record yourself while you are practicing, review your video after a shot.
As with ANY style, side and rear views are needed.
Take notes on how things feel and look.
I'd recommend practicing without a ball first, then a lighter house ball while you are getting the approach ironed out.

---- end sandbox notes !---



Some good commentary and graphics, some cause and effect from
Jim Merrell in the following.


viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13980" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Mirrors or other reflective surfaces, glass etc.

Seeing yourself is helpful. Many people do not have an accurate conception of their body position. I've found that initially people are surprised at the height of their Backswing. While using a mirror has limitations it can be illuminating.
For example, using Jim's pictures in links above, strike a pose, for example, the apex of a two handed swing, look at yourself from the side view.
Seeing yourself can establish a better and more accurate mind to muscle connection.

Again, while we don't want clones and robots, their are COMMON DENOMINATORS that many
Skillful, efficient and productive athletes share. So said Don Johnson, so says the ETBF folks.
They study video and learn. The difference between styles and flaws are results. :)
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so

There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

Empathize

John

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Re: Struggling To Adapt To Two Handed

Post by JMerrell » May 22nd, 2019, 1:34 pm

RobPina1991 wrote:Anyone? or should I just give it up :lol: :lol:
Patience

I going to assume the above response was made in humor as it was only 4 hours after your original post.

I don't view this forum as a coaching hotline. Questions are asked and my response will come when it fits my schedule......not the posters.

And you are correct the video quality is unacceptable, can't evaluate what you can't see!

I suggest you find a friend who has a better camera / phone and submit a side & back video in order to receive an analysis that will provide direction and not a guesstimate.

From the little I can see:


From your second to third step it looks as though you rotate your torso clockwise as the ball and arms are swung in a twisting fashion around the body.

After ball placement Jason’s ball & arms work straight back close to his body and upward vertically

Your third step left looks fabricated.

Jason’s lateral step is a result of the body getting out of the way of his backswing which replaces the space formally held by his body.


Hopefully you have watched and emulated this video:
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... y_elements" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Feel is not Real!

As you practice you need to use video or have a friend concur you are actually doing what you think you are.
-JMerrell
"Simplify the Motion.....Maximize the Results"

RobPina1991
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Re: Struggling To Adapt To Two Handed

Post by RobPina1991 » May 22nd, 2019, 7:10 pm

kajmk wrote:Rob, welcome to Bowling Chat.

Relax, none of this is intuitive. Have a plan and patience. Don't worry about scores.
Develop the process, focus on form and glide to where you need to lay down the ball.
Quantify a board where you want to finish. When you deliver the ball, post your shot watching the ball thru the pins, then look down at your foot, what board, if you are not there, figure out why and adjust. Ron Clifton's article "Kickball for strikes and spares, is a good thought process.
To start, connect imaginary dots from foul line laydown to a nearby target to a focal point at the pin deck, roll a straight ball to the focal point.
Hooking a ball without your thumb is easy but accuracy is king.



I believe Jim Merrell and TonyPR are at a Kegel Two Handed Bowlers "seminar"
Tony Coachs 2 handers, his daughter is one. Tony is knowledgeable and helpful. Jim, well Jim is our Guru, unselfish and very skilled. Jim could very easily teach or mentor would be Coachs, he is as could as they come. At some point you may get a reply from them.

Note well that Jim uses video analysis and attaches annotated pictures with helpful graphics, showing angles, distances, height and other spacial dimensions.
Being able to break down video, frame by frame is a good tool, many active coachs would benefit from those tools.

If you view via youtube you can slow speed down in the playback settings option.
Sport action is very fast, use slow motion as a tool.



This may be a "work in progress reply".
In essence a draft.

I've been out of bowling for between 10-15 years.
I certified up to Silver level about 2003.
Note, the certification was merely lecture, some video, a test. The test was easy.
Almost no on lane lab work with people or otherwise, an EGREGIOUS shortcoming at that juncture, in my opinion.

I've never coached anyone as I'm not good enough. Though I might offer an opinion, I'm strictly amateur.
Opinion, USBC does not train or groom coaches.
ETBF is by far SUPERIOR. We should follow their example!!!



To an extent, Coachs are born, they have innate powers of observation, powers to deduce cause and effect, meld technique according to the athlete.


I know I'm repeating some things already said.
I'm going to float some: opinions examples and observations.
Make sure any suggestions make sense to you.

Whatever you practice and repeat will become habit. It's ok to be unique as long as you like the results.


Without a ball. Train yourself on the footwork first: Posture, cadence, nature of steps.
Use the tools of comparison and contrast as guidelines. Consider body type.
Opinion, your footwork needs tweaking. Straightening, narrowing, lubrication ...

You are learning something new, divide and conquer, break it into parts, develope the parts, assemble the parts.

---- begin sandbox notes ----


Initial cobbled notes

You mentioned speed as an area of concern.

I'm sure it's been mentioned that in EVERY style of bowling where steps are taken, foot speed is a major component. Marshall Holman practically ran to the foul line.
Marshall's style was unique.
See Cybervision video
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... sion_Tapes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These links are from the Coaching section of the wiki


Annotated video analysis by Jim Merrell

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... y_elements" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Keeping head over ball during entire approach, regardless of style
Look at the pictures of Malik bowling in Jim's post.


viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1052" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Record yourself while you are practicing, review your video after a shot.
As with ANY style, side and rear views are needed.
Take notes on how things feel and look.
I'd recommend practicing without a ball first, then a lighter house ball while you are getting the approach ironed out.

---- end sandbox notes !---



Some good commentary and graphics, some cause and effect from
Jim Merrell in the following.


viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13980" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Mirrors or other reflective surfaces, glass etc.

Seeing yourself is helpful. Many people do not have an accurate conception of their body position. I've found that initially people are surprised at the height of their Backswing. While using a mirror has limitations it can be illuminating.
For example, using Jim's pictures in links above, strike a pose, for example, the apex of a two handed swing, look at yourself from the side view.
Seeing yourself can establish a better and more accurate mind to muscle connection.

Again, while we don't want clones and robots, their are COMMON DENOMINATORS that many
Skillful, efficient and productive athletes share. So said Don Johnson, so says the ETBF folks.
They study video and learn. The difference between styles and flaws are results. :)

Hey,

I REALLY appreciate your feedback. The video links you posted have been extremely helpful and the advice very straight forward. I am a golfer and am constantly working to post my follow through so it makes so much sense to try to do that in my bowling game. I'm excited to take some of your advice to the lanes tomorrow!

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