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 Post subject: Practicing straight arm swing with an overweight ball?
 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:19 am Post Number: #1 Post
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I have been struggling with issue that bowling ball goes behind my back I was thinking that would practicing heavier bowling ball help?
My weight is 187 so based on 10% rule I should be able to bowl at least with 18 lbs ball (I normally use 15 lbs ball).

There is no many references of this on internet but I have understood that back in the days before 16 lbs max weight rule there have been 18 lbs balls available. Is anyone here ever tried one of them?

These balls are no anymore available but it should actually quite simple to add some metal to old 16 lbs ball to get extra weight to it. It will illegal to use on competitions anyway so metal can be used.


Any ideas or thoughts?


PS. I know that some coaches don't like idea to use different weight balls but I also know that there is good bowlers who are using lighter spare ball because it helps pickup splits like 3-10.


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 Post subject: Re: Practicing straight arm swing with an overweight ball?
 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:29 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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LittleTiger wrote:
I have been struggling with an issue that bowling ball goes behind my back I was thinking that would practicing heavier bowling ball help?
Any ideas or thoughts?


Swinging the ball behind the back is a symptom, the weight of the bowling ball is not the cause.

Rather than guess as to the cause of this issue, submit the required video for an accurate analysis.

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 Post subject: Re: Practicing straight arm swing with an overweight ball?
 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:20 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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JMerrell wrote:
Swinging the ball behind the back is a symptom, the weight of the bowling ball is not the cause.

Rather than guess as to the cause of this issue, submit the required video for an accurate analysis.

Well I know already that cause is my bad habit to lift ball on backswing.

What I'm really looking for on this topic is asking opinions if overweight ball would be one of the options to learn away from it? In my thinking heavier ball generates stronger pendulum which would make easier to feel it.


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 Post subject: Re: Practicing straight arm swing with an overweight ball?
 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:26 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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LittleTiger wrote:
What I'm really looking for on this topic is asking opinions if overweight ball would be one of the options to learn away from it? In my thinking heavier ball generates stronger pendulum which would make easier to feel it.


No

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 Post subject: Re: Practicing straight arm swing with an overweight ball?
 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:41 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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Yeah. It's nice to see that people on this forum are open to discussing new ideas instead of disagreeing them without good arguments...


Maybe I need to find some other place to evaluate my ideas...


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 Post subject: Re: Practicing straight arm swing with an overweight ball?
 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:03 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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LittleTiger wrote:
Yeah. It's nice to see that people on this forum are open to discussing new ideas instead of disagreeing them without good arguments...


Maybe I need to find some other place to evaluate my ideas...


JMerrell wrote:

Swinging the ball behind the back is a symptom, the weight of the bowling ball is not the cause.

Rather than guess as to the cause of this issue, submit the required video for an accurate analysis.


The good argument was already given.

Why are you reluctant to post a video for proper evaluation?

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 Post subject: Re: Practicing straight arm swing with an overweight ball?
 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:50 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Why are you reluctant to post a video for proper evaluation?

Because I wanted to discuss more on general level that why this drill would/would not work instead of getting stuck what happens on my video.

There are some videos on my older posts where we discussed why ball goes behind my back...


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 Post subject: Re: Practicing straight arm swing with an overweight ball?
 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:01 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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Ball behind the back is in many cases a consequence of one of two things:
-push away to the right (for a right hander)
-opening the shoulders too much

If you ask me I would recommend a big mirror and Eileen bowling buddies swing trainer. Using something heavier can injure your rotator cuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Practicing straight arm swing with an overweight ball?
 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:29 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
-opening the shoulders too much

Hmm. To be honest I don't fully understand why this would cause ball go behind the back? If ball is moving on free pendulum it should continue to direction where it was going before opening shoulders. Unless you reach shoulder joint movement limits.


TonyPR wrote:
If you ask me I would recommend a big mirror and Eileen bowling buddies swing trainer.

Good tip. They have a lot of interesting practice tools. Only problem is that price to get them with shipping and taxes to Finland is quite high. I need talk again about that with our bowling team if we would order them together.


TonyPR wrote:
Using something heavier can injure your rotator cuff.

This is interesting one. There is lot of juniors and small women using 15 lbs bowling ball without issues so I why would adult men break himself by using something heavier than 16 lbs? In my mind starting slow is more important...


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 Post subject: Re: Practicing straight arm swing with an overweight ball?
 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:15 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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Yes I agree, someone who is young and strong can use quite a heavy object for exercise without injury, but like you said it should be done slowly and progressively, from 15 to 16 and so on... Eileen's bowling buddies are much lighter than a bowling ball and really work well without having to be too heavy, it is more about learning the proper technique with immediate feedback than forcing the body to do it with more weight. If you have access to an 18 lb ball try it and report back but please be careful.


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 Post subject: Re: Practicing straight arm swing with an overweight ball?
 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:21 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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Regarding rotator cuff.
Look this topic up on youtube
athlean x rotator cuff exercises
Jeff is both physical therapist and trainer, has numerous referrals from professional athletes, was physical trainer for Major League Baseball Team the New York Mets.

Athlean-x is a very good source which teaches the science behind the training!

No mirror, do you have access to large windows or glass door, at home, or in a center, or gym? These can we used to practice what Tony mentioned. There is a very cogent anecdote regarding an athlete seeing themself that is detailed in "The inner game of tennis"
The Eileen Bowling Buddy tool Tony mentioned is a good tool.

Free swing is of course a relative term. We all know it's virtually impossible to achieve in the pure and total sense of it. Ron Clifton has some very relevant articles and tips regarding germane aspects for example:The grip, how to let the ball fall, how not to apply force.

Ever notice that holding, gripping a dumbbell is often if not always much easier than when you insert your fingers and thumb in a ball and then start swinging it?
I bet you can double or triple the ball weight and easily do a farmer's carry with dumbbells but not bowling balls.

I think we have to look at the swing as a variable in an equation.
Off the top of my head.
For example, standing in place and swinging is easier than moving and swinging, how and when we move will affect the swing.
How we place the ball, not only direction, but how the ball weight is distributed in our hand, when and how much of the weight transfers from the non bowling hand to the bowling hand.
The use of the opposite arm and orientation of that hand are factors.
How and when your upper body tilts.

Intuitively, depending on your strength and flexibility, there is a weight that is ample to train with. Someone like Jeff Lizzi ( in his prime) could no doubt swing a 25 pound ball.
Keep in mind that when a ball swings it starts to feel heavier.
That heavy weight theory, might work in the opposite way.
Your body wants to stay balanced and safe. A heavy object may trigger survival mechanisms.
For example, try lifting two dumbbells, one heavier than the other.


As for Jim Merrell's advice, I wish my knowledge and power of observation was anywhere near his.

Back to free swing exercise, I think there are some on the wiki. Additionally breaking down bowling into component parts can be effective, for example the old Ritger drill where the bowler places the ball into the hand of a partner, the 1 step, the 3 step, to name a few.

Also if you have the means to video yourself, review your self after each shot.
When you are practicing try keeping the ball out of the pocket, so you won't have an eye on the score, if you can shadow bowl, all the better.

Just a bit off the top of my head.

Also, the less hand pressure you apply, the freer your swing can be.

Cheerio

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 Post subject: Re: Practicing straight arm swing with an overweight ball?
 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:12 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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LittleTiger wrote:
Any ideas or thoughts?


Sure

Quote:
I have been struggling with issue that bowling ball goes behind my back I was thinking that would practicing heavier bowling ball help?


The ball going behind the players back is a common problem. But in all the years I've been bowling, I've never seen it ever suggested that using a heavier ball as a training aid would help you correct the problem.

Here's some info on the cause of a ball going behind your back from Kegel:
Common Causes of the Swing Going Behind the Back
    Ball starts away from the body
    Thumb turns away from the body as the ball goes into the backswing
    Poor fit causing excessive muscling of the ball
    Improper alignment in the setup in relation to the intended target
    Bowling on a condition that allows for plenty of recovery in the outside part of the lane

Keeping Your Swing On the Straight and Narrow
http://www.kegeltrainingcenter.com/ktc-magazine/2014/6/7/keeping-your-swing-on-the-straight-and-narrow

Quote:
My weight is 187 so based on 10% rule I should be able to bowl at least with 18 lbs ball (I normally use 15 lbs ball).


The rule suggesting to use 10% of your body weight to determine what weight ball to use is mainly for children.

Quote:
Well I know already that cause is my bad habit to lift ball on backswing.


First I would ask how did you determine that was the cause of your problem?

Next if that is the cause, that goes with the cause listed by Kegel above " excessive muscling of the ball" (most likely do to a improper fit).

IMO a heavier ball won't help with fit.

Quote:
In my thinking heavier ball generates stronger pendulum which would make easier to feel it.


Using a heavier weight ball to try and teach you to not lift the ball in the back swing, I think would probably be counter productive in the long run.

Just guessing but I think it would affect your timing (The main reason why coaches don't like the idea of switching between different weight balls) when your switch back to your regular weight.

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 Post subject: Re: Practicing straight arm swing with an overweight ball?
 Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:49 am Post Number: #13 Post
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LittleTiger wrote:
What I'm really looking for on this topic is asking opinions if overweight ball would be one of the options to learn away from it? In my thinking heavier ball generates stronger pendulum which would make easier to feel it.


What you want to do is find the cause, when you use a heavier ball you just hide that cause, in fact, you would make the problem worse. Why not record yourself playing without a ball? (You don't even have to show the video to us) When you're a person that pulls the ball in the upswing it becomes very clear when and for how long you pull when you do it without any weight whatsoever. Many people that pull, when do it without weight just see themselves holding the ball at the highest point of the swing for almost a full step.

I'm positive that if you try to correct the problem using a heavier object you'll get the opposite result. I would really like to see a new video of yourself bowling.

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 Post subject: Re: Practicing straight arm swing with an overweight ball?
 Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:15 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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2y2 wrote:


Me too!

In December 2016 he posted these videos with and without a ball.





My comments and suggestion are in post #9.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=12629

I wanted to see a new video to see if he has made any effort to try my suggestions.

He is from Finland and the ETBF certainly don't encourage his practice routine without a ball.



And you are correct a heavier bowling ball would not change the relationship of the ball to the head.

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 Post subject: Re: Practicing straight arm swing with an overweight ball?
 Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:57 am Post Number: #15 Post
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Lot of good comments. Thanks for them.

After all, I actually tried to bowl with 3 lbs wrist weight which at least in my thinking would be almost same than use 18 lbs bowling ball (at least from pendulum point of view).
But it felt too weird so I stopped that quite fast.


What comes to videos. Lately, I have been actually trying to avoid take videos because watching them easily makes me think too many things.
That why I trying concentrate to notice how to bowling feels and link that to ball motion.


And about these tips which Jim told me earlier. I needed partly learn bowling again after knee surgery and I have been focusing other areas for now.
So most of that stuff is still valid and I probably will focus to these next for some time and then come back with new videos.


PS. Sorry about my frustration on third post on this thread. I just like to keep discussion on the topic and when I'm ready for video to analyze I will create own topic for that.


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 Post subject: Re: Practicing straight arm swing with an overweight ball?
 Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:22 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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LittleTiger wrote:
Sorry about my frustration on third post on this thread. I just like to keep discussion on the topic and when I'm ready for video to analyze I will create own topic for that.


Fair enough, give that knee adequate time to heel!

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 Post subject: Re: Practicing straight arm swing with an overweight ball?
 Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:00 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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Try putting the wrist weight on the non bowling wrist. Seriously, see what effect if any this has and what you notice.

Just for fun, submit video as per wiki guideline ...

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