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 Post subject: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accuracy?
 Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:56 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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Separated topic from this post.

TonyPR wrote:
I would not recommend planting as a way to fix an issue of your physical game, especially if you can already slide naturally. If you want to see a video of a planter look up Michael Haugen Jr.

Again, I don't believe learning to plant will fix a speed issue, learning how to transfer energy efficiently from the legs to the ball with a muscle free swing will.

I had long discussion with my coach today about this and he had strong opinion that I definitely should practice bowling with sneakers.

His argument was that it forces me drop my waist level during 4th step which leads to strong release position where it can be easily pull down instead of push. And from that position I can more easily get more speed and accuracy to ball.

He have also many times told me that pull movement is always accurate but push is not. He used driving with trailer as example. It is simple to drive 100 mph with trailer to forward (pull) but very hard to drive even 10 mph to backward (push) with it.


We also looked lot of videos how the top power players are doing that.

Here is two example screenshots which I took from Youtube where I marked waist level during 4th step and as comparison to waist level when 5th step is just hit the floor. You can see that waist level is dropping a lot for these guys.


First example is Osku's video from here:
Attachment:
Osku_waist_level_comparison.png
From right picture you also can see that how strong position Osku's left leg is which makes easier to transfer energy to ball.

Second example is Tommy's video from here:
Attachment:
Tommy_waist_level_comparison.png



For me this sounds reasonable but how you guys are thinking?


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 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:22 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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LittleTiger wrote:
I had long discussion with my coach today about this and he had strong opinion that I definitely should practice bowling with sneakers.


Question when he said to "practice" bowling with sneakers, Did he just mean to use sneakers as a training aid during practice to get you use to dropping your waist level ? or to use them all the time even in league?

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 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:25 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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Your coach must think very little of the flat spot.

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 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:26 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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Why can't you lower your hips?

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 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:26 am Post Number: #5 Post
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Osku creates his speed by jumping towards his slide (it's a little slide but it's toe to heel) while keeping his arms and shoulder relaxed and thus creating lag in his arms just like golfers do on their swing. If you take a look at a video of Osku you will notice that as his slide begins the ball doesn't move, almost like if the ball's weight was pulling back as he is thrusting his body forward. His forward spine tilt greatly increases with his slide and that along with his knee bend creates a loooong flat spot in which he accelerates the ball at just the correct time effectively transferring energy from his legs.

Tommy Jone's spine also has forward tilt, not as much as Osku but he also manages to create a good flat spot in which he accelerates and creates lots of revs and speed... I have seen him do it in person and it's very fluid. He also slides.

Go ahead and follow your coach's advice as he has seen you bowl in person and I am sure he wants to help you bowl better. Please report back and let us know how bowling with sneakers went for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:25 am Post Number: #6 Post
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Two handed bowling is measured in different terms than one handed bowling, so for now I will call the last step 'slide' even when at some point two handers do not slide in the whole last step. Taking this in consideration Osku's 'slide' is in no way a short one. Look at these pictures (If you cannot see them I've attached them at the end of the post):
Image
Image

Don't they look similar? In both cases the ball is about to start falling from its highest point, both feet are almost together, even their distance to the foul line is similar, I chose Barnes because his height is similar to Osku's. The last step of two handers is divided in two, the landing from the jump and the slide, so I called it only slide in the images but it could be called power step.

I cannot imagine Osku or Belmo trying to bowl with sneakers, or planting, with all the inertia they have, they would end up kissing the lane.

I don't really think that planting has anything to do with dropping the waist at all, Osku's not a planter and neither Tommy Jones is, in fact, even though there are few planters in the PBA right now and at least 3 of them have titles (Brad Angelo, Michael Haugen Jr and Shannon Pluhowsky), they are great bowlers not because they are planters, but because they're amazingly talented, and I can imagine they would have a lot more success if they were sliders instead.

This topic is about speed and accuracy, to be more accurate you have to generate margin of error, planting does it? NO, because it denies the flat spot concept. And as I stated in the other post, planters are rarely high speed bowlers. Speed is generated by our legs, when you plant your last step, you reduce the distance you can use to accelerate the ball with your legs so, no, I do not think planting can help in any way to drop you waist, generate speed and definitely it won't enhance your accuracy.

I would try it though, it can be enlightening and maybe it could be another tool to use in case it helps you be more versatile.
Attachment:
SlideBarnes.jpg

Attachment:
SlideOsku.jpg


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Last edited by 2y2 on Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:21 am Post Number: #7 Post
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bowl1820 wrote:
Question when he said to "practice" bowling with sneakers, Did he just mean to use sneakers as a training aid during practice to get you use to dropping your waist level ? or to use them all the time even in league?

I think that only thing which is agreed by all the coaches who with I have discussed is that there is no anything so good or bad on bowling what you should always or never to use.

Point is to give bowler tools where he can pickup which works for him.


MegaMav wrote:
Your coach must think very little of the flat spot.

That is probably true. I think that he see little bit differently than most of the coaches that what is cause and what is effect.


spr3wr wrote:
Why can't you lower your hips?

Sorry but I did not fully understood that what you mean? Lower waist level and hips is on my mind samething.
Question is just to how to get there?

He explained this thing using different sports as example and one eye-opening for me at least was example of weak vs strong knee position on lunge:



TonyPR wrote:
Osku creates his speed by jumping towards his slide (it's a little slide but it's toe to heel) while keeping his arms and shoulder relaxed and thus creating lag in his arms just like golfers do on their swing.

We discussed about this too and his opinion was that Osku is jumping to up, not to forward. But of course Osku will go forward too because he is already going to direction when he jumps.

Creating lag in arms like on golf is target yes (my coach is btw golfer also so I have heard lot of golf examples :) ).
Question is just how to learn that kind of movement?


TonyPR wrote:
Go ahead and follow your coach's advice as he has seen you bowl in person and I am sure he wants to help you bowl better. Please report back and let us know how bowling with sneakers went for you.

Yes, I will but it will take sometime before I can bowl again so on meantime we need focus to discussing...


Last edited by LittleTiger on Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:28 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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2y2 wrote:
Two handed bowling is measured in different terms than one handed bowling, so for now I will call the last step 'slide' even when at some point two handers do not slide in the whole last step. Taking this in consideration Osku's 'slide' is in no way a short one. Look at these pictures (If you cannot see them I've attached them at the end of the post):

Don't they look similar? In both cases the ball is about to start falling from its highest point, both feet are almost together, even their distance to the foul line is similar, I chose Barnes because his height is similar to Osku's. The last step of two handers is divided in two, the landing from the jump and the slide, so I called it only slide in the images but it could be called power step.

Actually I think that this is what he is tried to explain to me.

Point is not to get long slide but instead of that to get long last step which will happen automatically if you are able to drop your waist/hip/ass between legs.

Like you can see Shannon Pluhowsky has also very long last step even without sliding at all:
Attachment:
Shannon_waist_level_comparison.png


2y2 wrote:
I cannot imagine Osku or Belmo trying to bowl with sneakers, or planting, with all the inertia they have, they would end up kissing the lane. I don't really think that planting has anything to do with dropping the waist at all, Osku's not a planter and neither Tommy Jones is, in fact, even though there are few planters in the PBA right now and at least 3 of them have titles (Brad Angelo, Michael Haugen Jr and Shannon Pluhowsky), they are great bowlers not because they are planters, but because they're amazingly talented, and I can imagine they would have a lot more success if they were sliders instead.

My (and I assume that my coach too) purpose of course was not say that planting would be some kind of secret weapon which can fix anyone bowling issues but instead of that I just wanted questioning of thinking that if even sliding is something that bowlers should try on purpose? Meaning that slide is more like effect of good approach.

It is very easy to get long slide. Just change more sliding soles and "run" faster.

2y2 wrote:
This topic is about speed and accuracy, to be more accurate you have to generate margin of error, planting does it? NO, because it denies the flat spot concept.

How planting denies flat spot concept? If you look Shannon on picture above you can see that she has flat spot because of long last step and that long last step is generated by let waist/hip/ass drop on "freefall" instead of moving weight to forward too soon (same way like on right lunge technique).

EDIT: One more example. Look how much Brad Angelo's shoulder is moving forward after his heel hits the floor:
Attachment:
Brad_Angelo_flat_spot.png

At least my understanding is that is creating flat spot...


2y2 wrote:
And as I stated in the other post, planters are rarely high speed bowlers. Speed is generated by our legs, when you plant your last step, you reduce the distance you can use to accelerate the ball with your legs

With legs you can accelerate your body speed to forward but by let your body drop to down you can generate lag on your arms like on golf swing which will also accelerate on your ball and at least on my coach thinking it is good idea to learn that first with less speed generated by legs (or that why I at least understood of it).


Anyway, thanks for everyone so far. There have been lot of good comments and I hope that I can give you also some new ideas...


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 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:12 am Post Number: #9 Post
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The flat point is not about the final step length, it is about where does the release happens relative to the foot and the shape of the swing at the bottom, while it is true that Shannon has a long last step, her flat spot is really small, it is not where she steps is what happens after she plants her last step. As I already said, once the foot is planted the body won’t move much more further forward depending on knee continuation and how the torso reacts, so the release must happen in an exact point at the bottom of the swing. Shannon is one of the best bowlers ever and she can repeat almost always her release in time, but she is exceptional. Look at this image:
Image
Attachment:
flatspot.jpg


When you slide, the spot at which the release must happen gets lengthened and the shape of the swing is flattened at the bottom, you can release the ball all along that flat horizontal line, that makes your release a lot more repeatable, thus your game will be more consistent. In the PBA’s All time tour titlists statistics in the first 51 places, up to 10 titles got, only Tommy Hudson is a planter, of course also only Belmo is a two hander.

Here's one really great flatspot, look how he´s still sliding long after he´s released the ball:



About generating speed with the arms, the difference between biomechanics of golf and bowling is the hip, we don´t use it in the kinetic chain, golfers do. Now, which muscles are bigger, arm muscles or leg muscles? The bigger ones generate more power with less effort, I would definitely go with the legs to get more speed.


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 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:36 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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2y2 wrote:
The flat point is not about the final step length, it is about where does the release happens relative to the foot and the shape of the swing at the bottom, while it is true that Shannon has a long last step, her flat spot is really small, it is not where she steps is what happens after she plants her last step. As I already said, once the foot is planted the body won’t move much more further forward depending on knee continuation and how the torso reacts, so the release must happen in an exact point at the bottom of the swing.

I see that we are looking for this bit differently.

I try explain my thinking using this picture where I have took screenshots from Chris Barnes and Michael Haugen Jr. First picture is point of highest backswing, second picture is when weight is just moving to from right to left leg and third picture is point of release.
I also marked hip level using yellow color and shoulder level using green color to these pictures:
Attachment:
chris vs haugen.png

When you looking for closely you will notice that Chris is actually keeping his weight on right leg very long time (like Michael Haugen Jr) and his slide after moving weight to left leg is only one feet long.

Your can also see that on both of these bowlers hip is keeping on same level after they drop they waist level down which creates flat spot there.

And third thing to notice is that on both of these bowlers shoulder is dropping from highest point until release which allows they generate lag to arm.


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 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:06 am Post Number: #11 Post
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Flat Spot:

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... _Flat_spot

Planters after release tend to stand up.......therefore without knee continuation their release window is very small.

On the other hand the slider's Knee Continuation creates a larger Flat Spot.......equating to a larger release window.

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 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:23 am Post Number: #12 Post
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JMerrell wrote:
On the other hand the slider's Knee Continuation creates a larger Flat Spot.......equating to a larger release window.

Sorry but I still don't understand why knee continuation matters because movement of shoulder defines shape of swing? Not the knee movement.

Here is my "corrected" version of that wiki text:
Quote:
In the second view his last step is now "landed" and the swing radius has moved forward as a result of the shoulder moving from the yellow to the green line. This movement of the shoulder to forward also moves the radius of the swing towards the foul line to position #2. Because the radius of the swing moved forward the ball path can no longer follow the original red arc. It is now on the path of the blue arc.

As the shoulders close and the body weight transfers to the left foot the radius of the swing moves forward to position #3.

The body weight continues to move forward and so does the radius of the swing, now at position #4. From position #4 the swing will arc upward on a path very similar to the original red arc.

My summary: The length of the radius of his swing (shoulder to ball) never changes. The radius point of the swing moving forward and down as a result of last step distance and dropping shoulder creates the length of his flat spot (orange line).

If you looks closely that picture which I attached to last message you can also see that both of that bowlers flat spot is not actually moving horizontally with floor but instead of as airplane landing like movement because they are dropping their shoulder sametime when it is going to forward.


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 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:29 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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Flat spot info video

The flat spot is the area in the red circle in which the blue ball track flattens and the delivery happens.


(English cc/subtitles available for the text shown in the video)

This is a translation from German of the text that goes with the video:
Players who are able to make your delivery with a flat spot have the advantage that you can benefit from a margin of error in the delivery. It has also been shown that these players also have a higher consistency of the delivery.

The following elements are necessary in order to be able to produce such a flat ball track (or flat spot)
- the inclination of the upper body during the slide step should have a constant angle as far as possible
- the level (height) on which the hip axis moves during the slide step should remain as equal as possible until delivery
- to support this flat ball track, the knee should also continue the forward movement after which the foot has completed the sliding movement.

You also might want to read this:
Don’t Underestimate the Flat Spot!
http://tamerbowling.com/dont-underestimate-the-flat-spot/

Excerpt:
"So it is important to remember that the armswing should not be a simple semi-circle, i.e., it doesn’t just go back shoulder height and come forward shoulder height. At some point when you release the ball at the bottom of the swing, there actually has to be a slight forward projection which creates this “flat spot” effect."

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Last edited by bowl1820 on Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:37 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:06 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:10 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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OK see that I need use more time to looking for all these flat spot articles so let's forget that for while and discuss about accelerating bowling ball by dropping waist level like I wrote to topic.

2y2 wrote:
About generating speed with the arms, the difference between biomechanics of golf and bowling is the hip, we don´t use it in the kinetic chain, golfers do. Now, which muscles are bigger, arm muscles or leg muscles? The bigger ones generate more power with less effort, I would definitely go with the legs to get more speed.

Point is not use just arms to generate speed. You can use your whole body weight for that.

I created short video about that theory:


Then look how Osku let his body drop and same time tilts his upper body to forward when bowling ball is still going up during backswing. That is point where he accelerates and when ball starts fall he just need to let it go:


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 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:07 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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How about starting here?
http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/slowinski%20july%2012.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:06 am Post Number: #17 Post
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2y2 wrote:

Yes, I have readed that earlier and just readed it again.

It is very good article and there is lot of useful stuff but even that article skips the point that you can accelerate bowling ball a lot by dropping your body.

And actually I have not seen any bowling article discussing about it but when you look closely you can see that basically all power players are doing it especially when they bowl deep deep inside.


Let's take another example. On this video Osku throws very fast using just one hand:

He has very high backswing yes but actually there is not so much legs speed.

So where/how he is generating speed to that ball? IMO is that on point where he drop his body almost vertically down and actually he also "jumps" back up when ball is coming down to get maximum acceleration to his ball (like on that my earlier video: acceleration happens when you move your shoulder to opposite direction).


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 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:08 am Post Number: #18 Post
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LittleTiger wrote:
Your can also see that on both of these bowlers hip is keeping on same level after they drop they waist level down which creates flat spot there.


These are very much simplified examples of different approaches:
ETBF way: After second step bowler transforms the body position very much like he/she is at the release. This means the upper body is about 45degree angle to forward and 45degrees right (right hander). Knees are bended causing the hips to go lower and gain balance.

DYDS way: The body is already positioned much like the way bowler is standing at the release.

Both of these are aiming to minimize the lateral and up/down body and head movements especially during release. DYDS goal is also to keep the head movements minimum during the whole approach to gain accuracy. These approaches aren't actually much different to each other. They are just started and teached a bit differently and thus sometimes misunderstanded as something new and experimental. And yes, the most common way (my opinion) to bowl is the first mentioned way which includes this waist-dropping but it is not all about creating a flat spot. Its also about getting the ball closer to the lane, balance and playing stronger, more consistent, "behind the ball" etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:11 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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LittleTiger wrote:

Let's take another example. On this video Osku throws very fast using just one hand:

He has very high backswing yes but actually there is not so much legs speed.


Come on! He's almost running, what do you mean not so much legs speed. Now why would somebody want to throw that fast? Osku only throws like that (And not as much) when he´s spare shooting. Bowling is not only about ball speed, right?

Dropping the body as you say is an effect not a cause, if dropping the body was the way to generate speed nobody would need to walk to throw a ball, we want to accelerate the ball horizontally not vertically as the movement you describe would, the horizontal body drivers are the legs. You can just place yourself at the foul line, make your swing, drop your body at the right moment and try to measure your speed I bet it won´t be much.

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 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:40 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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Foot-ball...

LittleTiger, in that last Osku video check out the difference in time from when the foot reaches the foul lines to when the ball reaches the foul line... you can say the word foot-ball very fast, it's all about the timing... oh and if those legs aren't moving fast I really don't know what fast is.

We are all trying to help, you are free to choose to follow what advice to follow, at the end it's about what works for you as an individual and how easy you can repeat it.


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