Board index » Coaching Forums » Community Coaching




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:33 pm Post Number: #21 Post
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: July 9, 2012
Posts: 1051
Location: Central Florida
Reputation: 355
Reputation Power: 4
Going back and rereading this thread, the org. question was "Can dropping you(r) waist level give more speed and accuracy?"

Along with the statement:
Quote:
I had long discussion with my coach today about this and he had strong opinion that I definitely should practice bowling with sneakers.

His argument was that it forces me drop my waist level during 4th step which leads to strong release position where it can be easily pull down instead of push. And from that position I can more easily get more speed and accuracy to ball.


(Note since we weren't there to hear what the coach said in it's full context, that may inject some confusion that can affect the replies)

IMO No the dropping of the waist in of itself doesn't generate more speed or accuracy.

It's the being in the lower (stronger) position, that allows you to transfer the power/speed you already generated with your approach and swing more efficiently and allows you to be more accurate.

Which appears to be what your coach is wanting by where you said "...which leads to strong release position ....."

The first question then would be how do you achieve a lower waist position?

The basic answer is to finish with good knee bend and your trailing leg behind you to get the hips low. (Making sure to post the shot so your not falling off.) this will give you a more consistent, accurate and a stronger release.

The next question is How would wearing sneakers (and doing a plant and shoot method) going to lower the waist and generate speed?

You said your coaches argument was "that it forces me drop my waist level".

By planting and not sliding, your bringing your body basically to a dead stop. Your leg will then act like a shock absorber, the knee will bend some and because of this your body will get a little lower.

But by stopping that way you've eliminated most of the momentum (speed) you built up during your approach.

So How do you get the speed (momentum) back?

Most likely it's going to be by the player muscling the ball, Pulling it down in the swing.

In your post that is mentioned by your coach "where it can be easily pull down instead of push." + the trailer example.

Pretty much everyone will tell you don't pull (muscle) a ball down, that can lead to several problems. You want a loose swing motion and when your ball is at the top of the back swing and it starts forward you want the ball feeling like it's falling into the forward swing. You could then accelerate your forward swing as you go into the finish.


Earlier I asked:
"Question when he said to "practice" bowling with sneakers, Did he just mean to use sneakers as a training aid during practice to get you use to dropping your waist level ? or to use them all the time even in league?"

You reply:
Quote:
I think that only thing which is agreed by all the coaches who with I have discussed is that there is no anything so good or bad on bowling what you should always or never to use.

Point is to give bowler tools where he can pickup which works for him.


Yes in bowling there are many thing's that there is no right or wrong way to do it, you do what works for you.

But That doesn't actually answer the question asked.

You see there are thing's that coaches sometimes tell you do in "PRACTICE", because they are just meant to give you a feeling of something, a certain position etc. or to help you develop a certain muscle memory. But they don't mean for you to necessarily do it in actual competition.

The question was how did your coach mean it (to Use sneakers)?

Use the sneakers only during practice as a training aid of some kind? To get the feeling of being lower etc.

Or does he want you to use them all the time, change from a slide and become a plant and shoot bowler?

Because if you go to a plant and shoot method, that will affect the replies given. Such as the talk of the flat spot etc.

_________________
Click my green + rep button if this helps!
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:05 pm Post Number: #22 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: December 6, 2015
Posts: 93
Location: Finland
Reputation: 18
Reputation Power: 1
2y2 wrote:
Come on! He's almost running, what do you mean not so much legs speed.

Ok your are right. His foot speed is fast but it is not that fast that it would explain all that ball speed.

Let's do some calculations.
Osku's ball speed on video is: 53 km/h ~= 33mph

Then lets expect that Osku would be able to run like Usain Bolt who's average speed on first 10 meters is 5.41m/s (http://datagenetics.com/blog/july32013/index.html) which means that his speed after first five meters (16 feets) would be that 5.41m/s. Then lets expect that Osku would have world highest backswing up to 3 meters (~9.8 feet).

So his foot speed would be: 5.41m/s ~= 19,5km/h ~= 12mph
Then let's calculate how much bowling ball is able accelerate during freefall from 3 meters: sqrt(2*9.81*3) ~= 7.7m/s ~= 28km/h ~= 17mph
So summary of these: 33-12-17 = 4mph
So where that 4mph is coming from?


And because Osku has not Usain Bolt's acceleration and because his backswing is not 3 meter high lets take new calculations using more realistic numbers.
So lets say that Osku's speed is 4m/s and backswing is 2.2meter high.
4m/s ~= 14.4km/h ~= 9mph
sqrt(2*9.81*2.2) ~= 6.6m/s ~= 24km/h ~= 15mph
So summary of these: 33-9-15 = 9mph

So where that 9mph is coming from?
IMO still is that he accelerates bowling ball by dropping his body but do you have some other option on mind?

2y2 wrote:
Now why would somebody want to throw that fast? Osku only throws like that (And not as much) when he´s spare shooting. Bowling is not only about ball speed, right?

Just now I'm interested to understand how he is able get as much speed to bowling ball.
That much speed is not of course needed for normal shots but understanding all possible ways generate speed at least does not harm.

TonyPR wrote:
We are all trying to help, you are free to choose to follow what advice to follow, at the end it's about what works for you as an individual and how easy you can repeat it.

Yes I know and I appreciate it very much.

bowl1820 wrote:
Yes in bowling there are many thing's that there is no right or wrong way to do it, you do what works for you.

But That doesn't actually answer the question asked.

You see there are thing's that coaches sometimes tell you do in "PRACTICE", because they are just meant to give you a feeling of something, a certain position etc. or to help you develop a certain muscle memory. But they don't mean for you to necessarily do it in actual competition.

The question was how did your coach mean it (to Use sneakers)?

I think that he mean that I should try that and then do my own decissions.

Based on this conversation I have actually already decided that I will buy pair of cheap sneakers and then also these sorted slide soles (maybe S4 and S2) and try what works best for me.


There was also some other questions which I will check later...


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:01 pm Post Number: #23 Post
Offline
Certified Coach

Joined: December 13, 2014
Posts: 845
Location: San Juan, PR
Reputation: 136
Reputation Power: 2
How timing affects speed... lets take a boxer for example, when a boxer throws a punch he pushes from the ground with his fist side leg and times it leg-punch... same as in bowling, timing is key.

_________________
I'm out to prove dedication, discipline and really wanting it can go further than raw talent alone...
RPMs - 375-420
Speed - 15 monitor
Axis Tilt - 3* (yikes!!!)
Axis Rotation - depends on what I want the ball to do


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:21 pm Post Number: #24 Post
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: July 25, 2010
Posts: 319
Location: Queretaro City, Mexico
Reputation: 115
Reputation Power: 2
When we say that the legs are the main speed generator that does not mean at all that ball speed will be equal to body speed, feet only start the kinetic chain, you have to ADD many factors such as elastic tension of the muscles, torso tilt and rotation, arm length, swing height, brake force, gravity, etc. It is the cumulative influence of many forces that make a powerful throw.

_________________
If you think I helped, please click on the "+" button, Thanks.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:57 pm Post Number: #25 Post
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: July 9, 2012
Posts: 1051
Location: Central Florida
Reputation: 355
Reputation Power: 4
LittleTiger wrote:
Let's do some calculations.


The extra speed is most likely do to some miss calculation.

Not being up on all the math, I think you didn't account for the ball traveling in a semi circle and the centripetal force. The tangential speed depends on the magnitude of the centripetal force.

So you would need to know the radius of the circle (how long his arm is), the weight of the ball used etc.

One thing don't over think this, it won't help.


Thought this might be of interest:

Sport Science-Sean Rash
They have him wired up with sensors to monitor him during his approach and release. Speed, angle etc.

_________________
Click my green + rep button if this helps!
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 6:57 am Post Number: #26 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: December 6, 2015
Posts: 93
Location: Finland
Reputation: 18
Reputation Power: 1
2y2 wrote:
When we say that the legs are the main speed generator that does not mean at all that ball speed will be equal to body speed, feet only start the kinetic chain, you have to ADD many factors such as elastic tension of the muscles, torso tilt and rotation, arm length, swing height, brake force, gravity, etc. It is the cumulative influence of many forces that make a powerful throw.

Yes, my formulas was rough for purpose.

What you can see from there is maximum speed which can be generated by legs and maximum speed what gravity can generate to bowling ball. Kinetic Chain only explains about how to transfer energy/speed to bowling ball but before you can do that you need generate it.

From these which you listed only elastic tension of the muscles can generate more speed. Other factor only affect transfer that speed to ball. And actually I think that elastic tension on shoulder/arm is what generates that missing speed on Osku's shot.


Interesting side note what I also noticed from these calculations was that gravity is able to generate almost double amount speed than legs which makes me think that it can be smart to go slower with legs to be able to transfer all that energy what gravity creates to bowling ball (=> timing).


bowl1820 wrote:
The extra speed is most likely do to some miss calculation.

Not being up on all the math, I think you didn't account for the ball traveling in a semi circle and the centripetal force. The tangential speed depends on the magnitude of the centripetal force.

So you would need to know the radius of the circle (how long his arm is), the weight of the ball used etc.

I don't think so. I used very rough calculations to show what is maximum possible speed what gravity and legs can together generate. Centripetal force will actually just slow down ball because part of energy will go for changing direction.


bowl1820 wrote:
One thing don't over think this, it won't help.

Well this is just too interesting that I think that I cannot stop before it is crystal clear for me ;)

bowl1820 wrote:
Thought this might be of interest:

Sport Science-Sean Rash
They have him wired up with sensors to monitor him during his approach and release. Speed, angle etc.

That is interesting yes but unfortunately I did not found their measurement results from anywhere.

Now let's look these which I had not time to answer earlier:
bowl1820 wrote:
IMO No the dropping of the waist in of itself doesn't generate more speed or accuracy.

It's the being in the lower (stronger) position, that allows you to transfer the power/speed you already generated with your approach and swing more efficiently and allows you to be more accurate.

Based on my earlier notes and that fact that coatch have been telling me many times that "body is like spring which you want tune and then release" makes me think that he was meaning that extra speed is generated by elastic tensions on shoulder/arm.


bowl1820 wrote:
In your post that is mentioned by your coach "where it can be easily pull down instead of push." + the trailer example.

Pretty much everyone will tell you don't pull (muscle) a ball down, that can lead to several problems. You want a loose swing motion and when your ball is at the top of the back swing and it starts forward you want the ball feeling like it's falling into the forward swing. You could then accelerate your forward swing as you go into the finish.

Actually I think that he was meaning that pull what elastic tension generates not what muscles can generate.
He has also tell that "you want throw bowling ball when it is still behind your back and then just let it go" which support that theory.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 2:46 pm Post Number: #27 Post
Offline
Certified Coach

Joined: December 13, 2014
Posts: 845
Location: San Juan, PR
Reputation: 136
Reputation Power: 2
In the modern game we open the shoulders by putting our balance arm in front of us just like when throwing a javelin (see ETBF presentation), we do this to let gravity work and eliminate the elastic tension in the shoulder an old school squared to the foul line shoulder alignment will produce. When we open the shoulders and let the backswing go as high as it naturally wants to go there will be a pause when it is not going up anymore but it still hasn't started to come down, at that moment we push off our power step and are careful not to pull down the ball with our arm, if done correctly the ball will feel like it will weights nothing. When the ball is going down (by gravity) our shoulder, which begins in our clavicle-neck joint will go under our head smoothly like if it was lubricated with oil. If our timing is correct once the ball is getting near our ankle while on it's flat spot you will all of the sudden begin to feel the weight of the ball which will get out of the thumb and begin to uncup the wrist, that's when we accelerate...

Hope this helps

_________________
I'm out to prove dedication, discipline and really wanting it can go further than raw talent alone...
RPMs - 375-420
Speed - 15 monitor
Axis Tilt - 3* (yikes!!!)
Axis Rotation - depends on what I want the ball to do


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 3:43 pm Post Number: #28 Post
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: July 25, 2010
Posts: 319
Location: Queretaro City, Mexico
Reputation: 115
Reputation Power: 2
Little Tiger, your calculations are not accurate at all in the way you thought them, gravity does accelerate the ball but you're forgetting it is a curved motion, gravity is a vertical acceleration and the torque it exerts to the arm changes with the angle, you're being so simplistic with them it makes no sense at all, we're dealing with vectors, they have magnidude and direction it is not just speed or just force. USBC specialists have made a ton of measurements and calculations. Mr. Joe Slowinski conducted a huge study in bowling biomechanics with a great team of biomechanics specialists in Malasya, why don't you try to contact him here (Hi's nickname here is BowlingCoach) so he can explain exactly what you want to find out with misleaded and simplistic calculations.

_________________
If you think I helped, please click on the "+" button, Thanks.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 5:58 pm Post Number: #29 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: December 6, 2015
Posts: 93
Location: Finland
Reputation: 18
Reputation Power: 1
Hah. TonyPR just said that look ETBF presentation and 2y2 that ask from Joe Slowinski.
There is lot of things where they do not agree. E.g. start of swing, start position, etc...

My coach is somewhere in middle. He accepts something from both of them but not all.
And he has some own opinions based on his experience of other sports.


Juha btw said on ETBF presentation that elastic tension cannot be used on bowling because it is usable only for 200 ms but IMO he forgets what elastic tension can be used on point when ball starts going down from highest point of backswing. And if I have understood right that is what my coach has tried to explain to me...


Good points anyway. Probably I will ask once again from my coach what he was meaning. Ask better calculations from some of my friends who are better on math and maybe I can also ask from Juha (who is my FB friend) about that elastic tension thing...


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 6:38 pm Post Number: #30 Post
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: July 25, 2010
Posts: 319
Location: Queretaro City, Mexico
Reputation: 115
Reputation Power: 2
I don't remember that Juha said that elastic tension cannot be used, but that it must be used at an exact moment when it is useful because of its small duration. About the differences between Slowinski and ETBF approaches I think that ETBF is more natural and anatomically correct, the thing with my comment is not about the technique but about the results Slowinski got when he conducted the biomechanics study when he was Director of Coaching and Coach Certification for the National Sports Council of Malaysia. I know that USBC also conducted studies like this when they brought many top bowlers and coaches from everywhere like Paeng Nepomuceno, Ernesto Avila, Jason Belmonte, etc. Where they measured every single aspect of their games such as finger pressure, or feet pressure, I recall they put many white spheres all around their bodies and with motion tracking systems they recorded a great amount of data concerning each of these spheres. Some examples:

http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/articles/USBCdevelopsnewbiomechanicstechnologyforbowling.pdf
http://bowl.com/uploadedFiles/Equipment_Specs/Information/Bowler-Vision.pdf

Paraphrasing Juha: "In any sport where you hit or throw an object, it is agreed that the power is created by the BODY ROTATION"

_________________
If you think I helped, please click on the "+" button, Thanks.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 7:35 pm Post Number: #31 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: December 6, 2015
Posts: 93
Location: Finland
Reputation: 18
Reputation Power: 1
2y2 wrote:
I don't remember that Juha said that elastic tension cannot be used, but that it must be used at an exact moment when it is useful because of its small duration.

Direct link to that slide: https://youtu.be/JQfSHD_Gtrg?t=2968

2y2 wrote:
About the differences between Slowinski and ETBF approaches I think that ETBF is more natural and anatomically correct, the thing with my comment is not about the technique but about the results Slowinski got when he conducted the biomechanics study when he was Director of Coaching and Coach Certification for the National Sports Council of Malaysia. I know that USBC also conducted studies like this when they brought many top bowlers and coaches from everywhere like Paeng Nepomuceno, Ernesto Avila, Jason Belmonte, etc. Where they measured every single aspect of their games such as finger pressure, or feet pressure, I recall they put many white spheres all around their bodies and with motion tracking systems they recorded a great amount of data concerning each of these spheres. Some examples:

http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/articles/USBCdevelopsnewbiomechanicstechnologyforbowling.pdf
http://bowl.com/uploadedFiles/Equipment_Specs/Information/Bowler-Vision.pdf

Sound interesting. Do you know if these results are available on somewhere?

2y2 wrote:
Paraphrasing Juha: "In any sport where you hit or throw an object, it is agreed that the power is created by the BODY ROTATION"

True, Osku does quite large body rotation on that video which can explain that missing speed.

2y2 wrote:
Little Tiger, your calculations are not accurate at all in the way you thought them, gravity does accelerate the ball but you're forgetting it is a curved motion, gravity is a vertical acceleration and the torque it exerts to the arm changes with the angle, you're being so simplistic with them it makes no sense at all, we're dealing with vectors, they have magnidude and direction it is not just speed or just force.

I shared this dilema and my calculations with my good friend who has studied physics and math on university. He said that they are good enough for this case and curved motion just change direction of speed not amount of it (or at least changing direction cannot increase speed).

He was also guessing that missing speed is coming from upper body rotation.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 8:54 pm Post Number: #32 Post
Offline
Certified Coach

Joined: December 13, 2014
Posts: 845
Location: San Juan, PR
Reputation: 136
Reputation Power: 2
To end my participation on this thread I am going to quote Nike on this one: "just do it"

Hope you get well soon little tiger, we can go on and on about this but you won't know what works until you try.

_________________
I'm out to prove dedication, discipline and really wanting it can go further than raw talent alone...
RPMs - 375-420
Speed - 15 monitor
Axis Tilt - 3* (yikes!!!)
Axis Rotation - depends on what I want the ball to do


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 4:42 am Post Number: #33 Post
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: July 25, 2010
Posts: 319
Location: Queretaro City, Mexico
Reputation: 115
Reputation Power: 2
LittleTiger wrote:
I shared this dilema and my calculations with my good friend who has studied physics and math on university. He said that they are good enough for this case and curved motion just change direction of speed not amount of it (or at least changing direction cannot increase speed).


I do not agree, in circular motion we have angular and tangencial velocities, you're not taking in account radius (Arm lenght) nor mass. Also you're considering vertical speed is the same as horizontal speed and in a simple pendulum (Which in bowling is not because the whole system is moving) The tangencial velocity is variable depending on the angle. I won't derive pendulum equations, but they do not correspond with your calculations. If only gravity could generate as much speed as you calculated, Pete Weber would be a high speed bowler just because of the height of his swing, but he's not.

Image

_________________
If you think I helped, please click on the "+" button, Thanks.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:45 am Post Number: #34 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: December 6, 2015
Posts: 93
Location: Finland
Reputation: 18
Reputation Power: 1
2y2 wrote:
I do not agree, in circular motion we have angular and tangencial velocities, you're not taking in account radius (Arm lenght) nor mass. Also you're considering vertical speed is the same as horizontal speed and in a simple pendulum (Which in bowling is not because the whole system is moving) The tangencial velocity is variable depending on the angle. I won't derive pendulum equations, but they do not correspond with your calculations.

Now we are getting somewhere. That is the thing what I have tried to explain using these calculations that simple pendulum (+ legs speed) cannot generate all that speed which Osku has on video.

You said earlier that:
2y2 wrote:
Dropping the body as you say is an effect not a cause, if dropping the body was the way to generate speed nobody would need to walk to throw a ball, we want to accelerate the ball horizontally not vertically as the movement you describe would, the horizontal body drivers are the legs. You can just place yourself at the foul line, make your swing, drop your body at the right moment and try to measure your speed I bet it won´t be much.

Generating speed by just dropping body without moving forward does not generate more speed but by dropping it (and especially shoulder) on right moment you can increase tangential velocity just like it is on my "How to accelerate heavy object like Bowling Ball?" video.

2y2 wrote:
If only gravity could generate as much speed as you calculated, Pete Weber would be a high speed bowler just because of the height of his swing, but he's not.

My point was not say that you can get all that speed to bowling ball. My point was to say that even on theoretical perfect conditions where there is no air resistance, where bowler does not slow down ball downswing and where bowler is able to transfer all that speed to bowling ball (and even when he would have Usain Bolt's leg speed and world highest backswing) he cannot get all that speed what Osku has on that video so there must be some other method too to accelerate bowling ball.


So based on this my current thinking is that my coach have been meaning that it is possible to accelerate tangential velocity by dropping waist level (and shoulder) on right moment and maybe also by using elastic tension (I need check this from him).


EDIT:
LittleTiger wrote:
... and maybe I can also ask from Juha (who is my FB friend) about that elastic tension thing...

I asked about this from Juha and he said that problem with using elastic tension from shoulder is that it causes too much pressure to wrist which you need then compensate with using muscles to keep wrist on cupped position which is not good idea.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 9:35 pm Post Number: #35 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 15, 2015
Posts: 153
Location: Finland
Reputation: 30
Reputation Power: 1
LittleTiger wrote:
Now we are getting somewhere. That is the thing what I have tried to explain using these calculations that simple pendulum (+ legs speed) cannot generate all that speed which Osku has on video.


Adding shoulder extension, body rotation and "leg speed" to the equation makes the calculation of forward velocity vector far more complex than just adding "leg speed" to the pendulum calculation.

If you dont take account the forces that bowler makes by trying to push the ball with hand, then vector drawings would look something like what I quickly sketched with my ipad (crappy sketch, i know). The upper demonstration is only the pendulum movement and the yellow force is showing the only possible direction that a bowler can use to affect ball speed other than the gravity itself (swing height). In lower demonstration there is those speed, body rotation, shoulder extension added to the equity. Take note that the vector lenghts are not presenting anything in these demonstrations. But basically the more leg speed combined with the kinetic chain force (body rotation with shoulder extension etc.) the bowler are having, the more forward accelerating force the bowler is creating to the ball. If you'd calculate these forces only in 2D, then the blue vector lenght would vary depending on the moment (shoulder extension, tilt etc.). Green pivot point ("shoulder") would then make non-pendulum swing by it's own.

You can make a simple test on how forces accelerate a swinging object. Find yourself some stick, bottle or similar object and hang it between your thumb and index finger. You'll notice that you will get a lot more speed to the swing by using forward accelerating force and turning the wrist at the same time.

Slowinski uses ice hockey shot as one of examples for the shoulder movement. Hockey player uses his full body to make a shot and it is actually quite similar process than in modern bowling: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uzWVizVPy8Q&feature=youtu.be

Uncupping the wrist could also decrease the ball speed if the timing is off. Some bowlers throw the ball much faster just by using "broken wrist" for the whole shot.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
Right Handed
PAP 4 3/8" x 0"
60* rotation
17.5* tilt
320-360 rev rate
17mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 1:19 am Post Number: #36 Post
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: July 25, 2010
Posts: 319
Location: Queretaro City, Mexico
Reputation: 115
Reputation Power: 2
LittleTiger wrote:
So based on this my current thinking is that my coach have been meaning that it is possible to accelerate tangential velocity by dropping waist level (and shoulder) on right moment and maybe also by using elastic tension (I need check this from him).


Once again you´re forgetting about vector direction, as Mo says, "pins are in front not in the ceiling" and certainly not on the floor right beneath us, dropping the body the way you suggest pulls the ball down, wat you want is to transfer as much energy as possible ONLY horizontally. When the ball is static at the top of the swing is the right moment to pull it in the direction of the pins and transfer energy horizontally, you HAVE to drop your heaps and shoulder to keep your center of gravity as low as possible to give your body enough stability because of the enormous amount of force being exerted at this point, same reason F1 cars are so close to the floor and buses are not used in races. For this matter gravity does not generate more speed horizontally than legs.

_________________
If you think I helped, please click on the "+" button, Thanks.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 12:39 pm Post Number: #37 Post
Offline
Certified Coach

Joined: December 13, 2014
Posts: 845
Location: San Juan, PR
Reputation: 136
Reputation Power: 2
I always teach to let the ball fall by itself (gravity) from the top of the backswing (when the ball stops going up or like you say when it is static), if we pull it down it will have an effect on our timing as our muscles will never be as consistent as gravity. If we let it fall it will feel weightless until somewhere in the flat spot and that's when I prefer to accelerate.

_________________
I'm out to prove dedication, discipline and really wanting it can go further than raw talent alone...
RPMs - 375-420
Speed - 15 monitor
Axis Tilt - 3* (yikes!!!)
Axis Rotation - depends on what I want the ball to do


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 9:05 pm Post Number: #38 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: December 6, 2015
Posts: 93
Location: Finland
Reputation: 18
Reputation Power: 1
VLe wrote:
You can make a simple test on how forces accelerate a swinging object. Find yourself some stick, bottle or similar object and hang it between your thumb and index finger. You'll notice that you will get a lot more speed to the swing by using forward accelerating force and turning the wrist at the same time.

Hmm. Now I did not understood how you mean that I should do this?

2y2 wrote:
Once again you´re forgetting about vector direction, as Mo says, "pins are in front not in the ceiling" and certainly not on the floor right beneath us, dropping the body the way you suggest pulls the ball down, wat you want is to transfer as much energy as possible ONLY horizontally.

No I don't forget vector direction but I still not understood why it matters if ball speed will be accelerated to down? Swing motion will anyway change direction of speed to forward.

TonyPR wrote:
I always teach to let the ball fall by itself (gravity) from the top of the backswing (when the ball stops going up or like you say when it is static), if we pull it down it will have an effect on our timing as our muscles will never be as consistent as gravity. If we let it fall it will feel weightless until somewhere in the flat spot and that's when I prefer to accelerate.

When you say accelerating on flat spot what is correct way to do that?
And should that acceleration also give you more speed or just more revs?


Anyway, let's take new angle to discussion. I did some browsing to my old videos and found this one. It looks to be slow motion (because there is not sound and it looks more realistic using youtube 1.5 video speed setting). Interesting thing on that one is that it is almost two years old video and on that time we practiced right timing a lot with my earlier coach and timing points 1 and 2 looks to be right:


So I know that I'm able to get my timing right if I focus to it but how you guys would suggest that I should practicing to get more speed?

When I last time checked my rev rate was 330 and ball speed 15 mph of the hand but I think that my rev rate is increased from that a bit so now it probably is somewhere between 350-400 when I get that weightless feeling on release so I would need get ball speed somewhere between 18-19 mph to be rev/speed matched up.

After that video I have shortened two first steps and got more leg speed to last steps so I think that I cannot increase leg speed anymore.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 6:34 am Post Number: #39 Post
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: July 25, 2010
Posts: 319
Location: Queretaro City, Mexico
Reputation: 115
Reputation Power: 2
Hello LittleTiger, now I see everything clear!

This is a description of some things I see that are going on, I´m not giving any solution whatsoever, I really recommend you to upload recent videos, side and back views for Jimm Merrill to analyze and give you his unparalleled advise.

Third step: Even though your timing at the 3rd step is almost right your torso is very vertical and you appear to be sitting back all the time. Look at Marshall Kent, how he has forward tilt, you both look similar at that point but his torso is starting to lean forward, yours don´t.
Attachment:
3rdStep.jpg


Top of the swing: You get very early to the top of the swing, here too, you can see how vertical your torso is and how you appear to be sitting back. You haven´t even begun your pivot step and this is the moment when your ball is static and will start to fall, too early. Marshal´s up swing hasn´t finished here and his right foot is already on the floor.
Attachment:
TopOfTheSwing.jpg


Pivot step: this is the moment when your ball should be starting to fall but in your case, it is already shoulder high, you can see how early your timing is and how in Marshal´s case the ball is starting the downswing. Notice Marshal´s forward tilt, compare it to yours, he´s attacking you´re sitting.
Attachment:
PivotStep.jpg


Mark Baker´s timing spot: According to Mark Baker, almost all hall of famers have the same position at this point, Marshall does but you are earlier as you get to the foul line. I´ve overlaid Marshall green lines so you can compare angles better. When your left heel touches the ground, your right arm should be horizontal (Blue line), in your case, well, look at the pink line. Once again compare Marshall´s forward tilt to yours, he´s attacking you´re sitting back.
Attachment:
TimingSpot.jpg


Release: At this moment you are leaning backwards, you push your hips to the front and pull your back backwards, dissipating all energy from your torso to the ball, you´ve lost the small torso forward tilt you had, compare Marshall´s position, the spine angle is at its greatest, look where his head is compared to his left foot and knee, everything is going forward, he´s attacking, you´re not, look how far away your face is from the vertical yellow line.
Attachment:
Release.jpg


I think that definitely one reason for your low speed starts with your really small forward tilt. I´m sorry to say this, but I don´t think your waist level has anything to do with your energy transfer.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
If you think I helped, please click on the "+" button, Thanks.


Last edited by 2y2 on Thu May 04, 2017 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Can dropping you waist level give more speed and accurac
 Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 10:50 am Post Number: #40 Post
Offline
Certified Coach

Joined: December 13, 2014
Posts: 845
Location: San Juan, PR
Reputation: 136
Reputation Power: 2
Very good analysis! I agree, work on spine tilt.

_________________
I'm out to prove dedication, discipline and really wanting it can go further than raw talent alone...
RPMs - 375-420
Speed - 15 monitor
Axis Tilt - 3* (yikes!!!)
Axis Rotation - depends on what I want the ball to do


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Board index » Coaching Forums » Community Coaching


 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: