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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:45 am Post Number: #21 Post
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I'm really glad to read that!

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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:52 pm Post Number: #22 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Funny you say that 2y2, I analyzed a video of myself and concluded exactly what you are saying. My game is limited by my rev dominance and today in practice I told myself I wasn't going to leave the bowling center until I learned to slide. Started with some swing and slide drills and eventually progressed to my full approach and speed increased considerably. It allows better energy transfer from the legs and does two very important things: 1) if you want to pull the ball down from the top of the backswing you can substitute the pulling down with your arm to pushing with your power leg and 2) you can easily keep the forward spine angle you created in your 3rd and 4th step of your 5 step approach. Today was one of those very productive practice sessions for me.


A thought on Rev Dominance and the slide correlation.
If I recall correctly, within the ETBF presentation,
Juha makes some interesting comparisons regarding more power via the leverage of two feet planted on the ice as in the slap shot versus less power but more accuracy (finesse if you will) with the wrist shot which is taken in the example by a moving skater with only one foot on the ice while moving.
He also goes on to note the changes some elite bowler's make when seeking more revs versus an up an at em shot. He observed that many lengthen their slide and some even release during the slide in an effort to push the ball down the lane.

Marshall Holman released amidst a long slide. This can be one tool in the box. Juha spoke of the release during the slide in the ETBF video. I've know a few bowler's who always did that. They were all accurate and consistent, very good lead off men.
Conveniently, there is a video of Marshall on the wiki -
Marshall bowled in a different era, I don't think he had a power shortage. He was a very good example of an exception to a rule. With a better emotional game, he could have doubled his titles (opinion of course)
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... sion_Tapes

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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:13 pm Post Number: #23 Post
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LittleTiger wrote:
See post 11 for his picture
He have been told me that to be able to get more speed and power to bowling ball I should be able to keep my ass more behind of knee instead of over it.

Here is one example which I was able to find with quick looking. Me vs Syaidatil Hamidi:
Attachment:
Me vs Syaidatil Hamidi.png

On my approach knee continuation starts too early (because of too fast feets). But anyway I think that point was that when you bowl with sneakers you need get this right. Other why you will fall to forward.


Btw. I also just got suggestion from him to look Shannon Pluhowsky from youtube how to bowl with sneakers.



Look at what Doug Kent does with his trailing foot. Practice that type of foot movement.
That can prevent too much weight on that rear foot and butt. That action also allows the swing to be closer to the body.
Side view - An old axiom was Toe-Knee-Chin.


Note that many coaches study an observe many bowler's as that is one way they learn.
We have a number of videos on the wiki here.
Here is an annotated video, you will find text and some overlays labeling key points in the approach
View Mohameds for visual impact, pause to read if need be.
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... hing_Video

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... ease_Video

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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:53 pm Post Number: #24 Post
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As kajmk says, what you do with your trail leg will affect your weight distribution, you don't want to much weight towards the back as this will affect your forward spine angle, for accuracy and proper energy transfer you want a quiet torso. What I like to do is focus on my lateral and forward torso position and try to keep it constant to have less moving parts. Marshall Holman is a master at this.

It's funny kajmk that many people who are against two handed bowling consider Marshall Holman to be one of the greatest ever, and in my opinion he is. He is also very close to being a two hander, the only thing different is that he removes his left hand earlier than a two hander...


Last edited by TonyPR on Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:38 pm Post Number: #25 Post
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kajmk wrote:
A thought on Rev Dominance and the slide correlation.
If I recall correctly, within the ETBF presentation,
Juha makes some interesting comparisons regarding more power via the leverage of two feet planted on the ice as in the slap shot versus less power but more accuracy (finesse if you will) with the wrist shot which is taken in the example by a moving skater with only one foot on the ice while moving.
He also goes on to note the changes some elite bowler's make when seeking more revs versus an up an at em shot. He observed that many lengthen their slide and some even release during the slide in an effort to push the ball down the lane. Marshall Holman released amidst a long slide. This can be one tool in the box. Juha spoke of the release during the slide in the ETBF video.

Yes, I remember this one too. Juha told on video that if you want decrease revs then just release during slide.

EDIT: Here is direct link to that https://youtu.be/JQfSHD_Gtrg?t=4056 just look next 3 minutes from that point.


My coatch have been also been told to me that bowling with sneakers is easy way to get lot of revs.

kajmk wrote:
Look at what Doug Kent does with his trailing foot. Practice that type of foot movement.
That can prevent too much weight on that rear foot and butt. That action also allows the swing to be closer to the body.

Make sense. I have been practicing that kind of movement lately but I need lot more practicing before it happens naturally.

kajmk wrote:
We have a number of videos on the wiki here.
Here is an annotated video, you will find text and some overlays labeling key points in the approach
View Mohameds for visual impact, pause to read if need be.
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... hing_Video

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... ease_Video

Good stuff. Lot of stuff what I had heard earlier but also many new focus points too.
I also was not noticed earlier that Tali bowling alley (where I have been mostly bowling practicing lately) is that popular on these videos ;)


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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:37 am Post Number: #26 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
As kajmk says, what you do with your trail leg will affect your weight distribution, you don't want to much weight towards the back as this will affect your forward spine angle, for accuracy and proper energy transfer you want a quit torso. What I like to do is focus on my lateral and forward torso position and try to keep it constant to have less moving parts. Marshall Holman is a master at this.

It's funny kajmk that many people who are against two handed bowling consider Marshall Holman to be one of the greatest ever, and in my opinion he is. He is also very close to being a two hander, the only thing different is that he removes his left hand earlier than a two hander...


Marshall, was probably my favorite bowler on tour.
Another bowler that keeps his other hand on the ball, a long time in my opinion, is Patrick Healy, at least in some of the shows I saw him in. In fact, while trying to copy some of his motion, I got primordial state of my two handed game. I was just starting to dabble in that style when some health issues got in the way. I was about 56 and saw it as a viable option. I'm a lot older than that now, but considerably stronger and in better shape, though I never bowled again.

Today while picking up dinner at a restaurant in a bowling center, I saw a very athletic boy, maybe 10 or less, I think he could and should be trying it. The family was there to pass the time or so it appeared.

There are a lot of people I see that with a few minor changes would improve. The centers do nothing to promote improvement.

The trailing foot motion was taught to me by Rolf Gauger, a grand old man and very good coach.

My compliments Tony on your contributions on this forum!

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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:47 am Post Number: #27 Post
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Littletiger, thanks for sharing that edit. Coaches Juha and Ondar, make some very enlightening points in that hour and a half presentation.
I'd love to see them offering their program on this side of the ocean.
I think their program of educates and grooms coaches, this is something we need in the USBC.

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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:29 am Post Number: #28 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Funny you say that 2y2, I analyzed a video of myself and concluded exactly what you are saying. My game is limited by my rev dominance and today in practice I told myself I wasn't going to leave the bowling center until I learned to slide. Started with some swing and slide drills and eventually progressed to my full approach and speed increased considerably. It allows better energy transfer from the legs and does two very important things: 1) if you want to pull the ball down from the top of the backswing you can substitute the pulling down with your arm to pushing with your power leg and 2) you can easily keep the forward spine angle you created in your 3rd and 4th step of your 5 step approach. Today was one of those very productive practice sessions for me.



Dear TonyPR

is it possible for you to share with me the "Swing and Slide Drill"? It would be highly appreciated.

Thank you
regards
HAKiani


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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:52 pm Post Number: #29 Post
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Here it is:


At the Kegel Training Center the Swing & Slide drill started as part of a sequence of 4 drills:

1. Foul line drill:

and


This drill, according to Slowinski is a release drill and helps putting the body in the right position.

2. Through the face dril:


3. Swing & Slide, which is a combination of 1 and 2

4. 3 Steps drill, which is a timing drill


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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:42 am Post Number: #30 Post
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kajmk wrote:

A thought on Rev Dominance and the slide correlation.
If I recall correctly, within the ETBF presentation,
Juha makes some interesting comparisons regarding more power via the leverage of two feet planted on the ice as in the slap shot versus less power but more accuracy (finesse if you will) with the wrist shot which is taken in the example by a moving skater with only one foot on the ice while moving.
He also goes on to note the changes some elite bowler's make when seeking more revs versus an up an at em shot. He observed that many lengthen their slide and some even release during the slide in an effort to push the ball down the lane.

Marshall Holman released amidst a long slide. This can be one tool in the box. Juha spoke of the release during the slide in the ETBF video. I've know a few bowler's who always did that. They were all accurate and consistent, very good lead off men.
Conveniently, there is a video of Marshall on the wiki -
Marshall bowled in a different era, I don't think he had a power shortage. He was a very good example of an exception to a rule. With a better emotional game, he could have doubled his titles (opinion of course)
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... sion_Tapes



Dear Kajmk

I thank you for the information.

Yes I also check the ETBF video probably twice a week just to double check some points from my own practice.

But there is a question still in my mind, as Juha mentioned if I am not wrong that you get the power from the movement of your torso and he said just like "Javelin" so the more power you want the more torso movement you need, and less accurate you become, the more accuracy the less torso movement is required and he mentioned "dart".

Now I came originally from the MMA sport so i know how the Kinetic of energy is being used in order to deliver a devastating and heavy punch and how to deliver a simple straight punch that does not need that much energy transfer and very little body movement but with high accuracy.

so coming back to bowling in any kind of sports you will see that for delivering the last amount of energy you have to make one of your foot a "pillar" now the question is that it does effect if we are throwing something but what are the effect when we are rolling the bowling ball? remember most of the games that are using the Kinetic of energy are mostly above the balance point of the body (3 finger below your belly button) but probably not for bowling as we are always working under that area, probably that is why we lower the body on the 3rd step in order maintain and keep the body in that zone.

Now according to what TonyPR had said I think it will all come back to what you want to do with your ball if you need more speed it would be better to "Plant" your 5th step and have a quick transfer of energy to the ball.
If you need more accuracy (like getting a spare) you do less body movement and you keep your shoulders square and sliding probably would provide you with smoother finish.
If you Slide then you are working on both accuracy and transfer of energy 50/50 for your first ball.


This was my conclusion so please let me know if it would be a right thing to use the "Sliding" or "Planting" as a situational thing or not?!

Thank you all for your awesome points and I thank you all again for the info.

Best regards
HAKiani


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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:48 am Post Number: #31 Post
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2y2 wrote:
Here it is:


At the Kegel Training Center the Swing & Slide drill started as part of a sequence of 4 drills:

1. Foul line drill:

and


This drill, according to Slowinski is a release drill and helps putting the body in the right position.

2. Through the face dril:


3. Swing & Slide, which is a combination of 1 and 2

4. 3 Steps drill, which is a timing drill





Dear 2y2

You just read my mind :D

i was thinking that it would be a good thing to have all the drills gathered in one place so that people could have access to it regarding their practice and needs, and you have done that already.

Thanx a million.

regards
HAKiani


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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:31 pm Post Number: #32 Post
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Quote:
Now according to what TonyPR had said I think it will all come back to what you want to do with your ball if you need more speed it would be better to "Plant" your 5th step and have a quick transfer of energy to the ball.
If you need more accuracy (like getting a spare) you do less body movement and you keep your shoulders square and sliding probably would provide you with smoother finish.
If you Slide then you are working on both accuracy and transfer of energy 50/50 for your first ball.

This was my conclusion so please let me know if it would be a right thing to use the "Sliding" or "Planting" as a situational thing or not?!

Thank you all for your awesome points and I thank you all again for the info.

Best regards
HAKiani


HAKiani, I think the more arrows in your quiver, the better. Sort of like being a baseball pitcher. You might want to see if those changes are really necessary for you though. In other words, don't fix it if its not broken!

It would be helpful if any bowler's that do that would add their input.
Sometimes, things sort of happen and evolve, success tends to be noted and emulated.
Suppose as bowler "A" intended to speed up their approach, the longer slide just happened
and the release happened during the slide. What resulted good or bad, would be more discovery than invention.

Sorry if that was a wishy washyanswer, but it's just my opinion.



Cheers.

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"An ever vigilant press is the guardian of a free society."
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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:03 pm Post Number: #33 Post
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Kiani wrote:
This was my conclusion so please let me know if it would be a right thing to use the "Sliding" or "Planting" as a situational thing or not?!

I had long discussion with my coach today about this and he had strong opinion that at least I should practice planting.

I created separated topic about it to here where I opened his arguments about it.


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