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 Post subject: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:47 am Post Number: #1 Post
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Dear Coaches

I am back again with more questions or just lets say confirmation or corrections.

I just came back from the long holidays and I had a chance to practice almost every other day which I have the following questions with some of my own analysis which would be a great help if you all would pitch in and let me know what you all think:

1- The spine angle was clarified before the holidays but noticed that everything happens between the 4th to 5th step (5 step approach), meaning that in order to maintain the tilt you have to break the 4th step knee towards the inside as the back swing is almost by your hip, this will keep and maintain the tilt position through the end.

2- most of the pumping for rev will be done during that specific point when you break your knee inward as you slide your 5th step.

3- also what I have been asking in this form as well is that how does the hand end up on the left side of the face (for the right handers) and noticed that if you do break you knee inwards in your 4th step your hand will have no other place to move except either in your face or the left side of your face.

4- have checked videos from the elite players and most of them (not all of them) do break their knee during their 4th step in wards pete weber, sean rash,... but also noticed another point people like chris barnes does not do that their 4th step and 5th step are different they slide way more meaning that the distance of their 4th step and where their slide is finished is way longer.

5- also regarding being behind the ball if you maintain your spine tilt as you break the knee inwards in your 4th step you have 2 major thing going for you A)- you release exactly where you want to release (meaning more control on what you do and where you want it) B)- automatically your hand is close to your ankle, think of it as a closed spring that opens up at the foul line.

Now having said the above I noticed that when ever I am getting the spare 6,9,10 I have to release the ball in a way that goes close to the gutter and with a controlled hook to come back so considering that I am almost at the left side of the approach I automatically need to close up and move my feet even closer together therefore automatically I had to break my knee inwards during my 4th to 5th step, that is why I became very focused on this matter.

now my question is that how can I make this a habit? what I can do better?

I thank you all in advance for your kind attention and looking forward to hear from you.

Best regards
HAKiani


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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:43 am Post Number: #2 Post
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Hello Kiani,

I am going to divide my answer in two parts:

1) Pumping of the revs? I asume you are asking about accelerating the swing. The best advice I can give you is to "not try". If your wrist and fingers are in a strong position and you didn't pull the ball from the top of your backswing, just let it fall by gravity, then you should accelerate on your flat spot. Try to visualize an airplane landing, when the airplane is moving parallel to the runway that's when you accelerate. Just keep it loose and the weight of the ball will uncup your wrist at just the right time without you trying, trust it, it's a little difficult to express in words.

2) The knee moving in on your power step. This will do two things, first it will get your ball side hip out of the way so your ball will not deviate from it's straight path (swing slot). Second, it will help you keep your hips aligned with your target line. Some people focus on the knee like you are saying while others focus on the top side of your balance leg shoe sweeping the floor. Both visualizations will achieve the same thing, it's all about the hips. Ending up releasing next to your ankle is a consequence of the ball staying in the swing slot by you getting the hip out of the way.

Hope this helps.


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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:09 am Post Number: #3 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Hello Kiani,

I am going to divide my answer in two parts:

1) Pumping of the revs? I asume you are asking about accelerating the swing. The best advice I can give you is to "not try". If your wrist and fingers are in a strong position and you didn't pull the ball from the top of your backswing, just let it fall by gravity, then you should accelerate on your flat spot. Try to visualize an airplane landing, when the airplane is moving parallel to the runway that's when you accelerate. Just keep it loose and the weight of the ball will uncup your wrist at just the right time without you trying, trust it, it's a little difficult to express in words.

2) The knee moving in on your power step. This will do two things, first it will get your ball side hip out of the way so your ball will not deviate from it's straight path (swing slot). Second, it will help you keep your hips aligned with your target line. Some people focus on the knee like you are saying while others focus on the top side of your balance leg shoe sweeping the floor. Both visualizations will achieve the same thing, it's all about the hips. Ending up releasing next to your ankle is a consequence of the ball staying in the swing slot by you getting the hip out of the way.

Hope this helps.



Dear TonyPR

Thank you for always answering my questions and thank you for being here for me.

1)- the rev pump? well I really was not thinking about it but as you mentioned it yes and just to tell you how right you are yesterday after about 6 hours practice my fingers and wrist were very tired and the last few games that I had to play (do to respecting one of the bowling elders), I was doing very bad but for my last game I just let it all go, and as you mentioned it all just happened!!! much to my surprise everything was nice not perfect but very nice so yes I "Felt" it and is not easy to put it into words.

But just for the sake of conversation we have 2 kind of Pumping for revs?

A)- during the down swing you break your elbow and then straight it out again very much like martial kent, pete weber and ...

B)- during the down swing and just before the release you pop your elbow out and in again much like Tommy Jones, and ...

I would like to know how just in case that more rev is required, but honestly I rather stick with what ever rev that I have as I am still focusing on timing, swing and continues release but as I said i would like to know just in case.

2)- the knee bend of step 4 to 5: if I have understood correctly the point is to get the hip out of the way, which is also very logical that means that you keep you hips through the process in 2 main sections step 3 to clear the path for the swing which also maximizes your swing as well and the 2nd part will be during the back swing and release point were the ball is coming back down.

so if this is the case instead of me focusing on the 4th step I need to be focusing on the hip keeping it clear and out of the way "AT ALL TIMES" :D

Now the third question which was not in the original topic but just yesterday the question poped:

3)- the balance arm rotation: does it have any points or should it be the usual thumb down and let it play naturally ???

It would be appreciated if you would advise me in this regard as well.

I thank you for your kind attention and looking forward to hear from you.

Best regards
HAKiani


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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:29 am Post Number: #4 Post
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Let the balance arm "swim" naturally, focus on releasing under your head and make sure your ball side shoulder doesn't end up in front of your balance arm shoulder, having the balance arm thumb down helps with this but is not required. Don't over think it, do what feels natural and is easy to repeat. Good luck.


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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:28 am Post Number: #5 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Let the balance arm "swim" naturally, focus on releasing under your head and make sure your ball side shoulder doesn't end up in front of your balance arm shoulder, having the balance arm thumb down helps with this but is not required. Don't over think it, do what feels natural and is easy to repeat. Good luck.



Dear TonyPR

I thank you for the info as always.

Was practicing yesterday and I was considering what you said regarding the "HIP" out of the way, and then I thought of something, "what if during my slide step (5th step) instead of my feet pointing dead straight I turn it towards the right side?!"

the result was interesting:

1- my bowling arm follow through ended up at the left side of my face because my body angle seamed very right

2- the targeting became much smoother and almost on the spot.

3- spine tilt that we talked about remained the same.

4- my hand became very close to my ankle

Points that needs to be remembered are:

1- keep your timing slower specially your first step

2- keep your forearm during release facing the front as long as you can

the result was just great

I will work more on this issue and let you know about the cons and pros but as always please let me know what you think and if I am on the right track or not.

Thanx a million for your kind attention and looking forward to your comments.

Best regards
HAKiani


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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:48 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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There are no rules set in stone, as long as you can hit your target line and repeat it's fine.


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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:55 am Post Number: #7 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
There are no rules set in stone, as long as you can hit your target line and repeat it's fine.



Dear TonyPR

I have a very simple question that might even sound ridiculous:

How important is for a bowler to SLIDE??

best regards
HAKiani


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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:08 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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Different coaches will have different points of view. Here are the two sides you will most likely hear:

Sliding:
-historically there is a greater amount of PBA titles that have been won by players who slide.
-sliding helps in creating a good flat spot in your swing
-sliding will be more forgiving for small timing mistakes
-it is believed by some that sliding will avoid knee injury more than planting

Planting:
-you can use everyday sneakers as long as they have a non marking sole and are used exclusively for bowling.
-you don't have to worry about sticky, slippery, wet or pop corn filled approaches so no need to worry about changing soles.
-it will not cause knee injury as long as you have good knee continuation, you don't twist the ankle and knee laterally and in excess, and you have strong legs, are not overweight and strength train regularly with exercises such as lunges and squats.

Personally I plant. For a while I learned to develp a slide but have reverted back to my old habits and am currently working on loosing weight and strengthening my legs which are already quite strong.


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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:07 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Planting:
-you can use everyday sneakers as long as they have a non marking sole and are used exclusively for bowling.

This is interesting. My coatch actually suggested that I should practice bowling with everyday sneakers because I have bad habit to go too much/too early over my knee and it should not be possible with sneakers.

Is there any video available which shows how to do that correctly? I did not found any good one.


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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:35 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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Please explain and describe what you mean by "too much/too early over my knee".


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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:25 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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He have been told me that to be able to get more speed and power to bowling ball I should be able to keep my ass more behind of knee instead of over it.

Here is one example which I was able to find with quick looking. Me vs Syaidatil Hamidi:
Attachment:
Me vs Syaidatil Hamidi.png

On my approach knee continuation starts too early (because of too fast feets). But anyway I think that point was that when you bowl with sneakers you need get this right. Other why you will fall to forward.


Btw. I also just got suggestion from him to look Shannon Pluhowsky from youtube how to bowl with sneakers.


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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:32 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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I would like to see a side video of you but from that photo it seems to me that you are probably "sitting" or lowering your rear end as in sitting on a chair when you do your power step (step before slide). I say this because your spine angle looks too vertical and because of this "sitting down" on your power step you are probably not transferring the energy from your legs to the ball efficiently. This is only a hypothesis based on a photo, a side video would help me confirm this.


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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:42 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
I would like to see a side video of you but from that photo it seems to me that you are probably "sitting" or lowering your rear end as in sitting on a chair when you do your power step (step before slide).

Yea, well that was just screenshot from one year old video as example for to your question: "Please explain and describe what you mean by "too much/too early over my knee".".

I can get different kind of things happen depeding what I trying to practice :)


But back to my question. Do you know some good video example how to to planting correctly? I tried to look youtube videos from Shannon Pluhowsky like my coatch suggested but did not found any good sideview video.


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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:30 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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I would not recommend planting as a way to fix an issue of your physical game, especially if you can already slide naturally. If you want to see a video of a planter look up Michael Haugen Jr.

Again, I don't believe learning to plant will fix a speed issue, learning how to transfer energy efficiently from the legs to the ball with a muscle free swing will.


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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:19 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
I would not recommend planting as a way to fix an issue of your physical game, especially if you can already slide naturally.

Yea, well I think that there is two styles to do 5th step:
  1. Use very slippery soles to get very long slide.
  2. Use very tacky soles to be able to step instead of slide.

I have been using very slippery soles earlier and changed them to more tacky ones later.
In my mind bowling with sneakers is just most extreme version of that second style.

I don't know will that work or not but cheapest sneakers are actually cheper than new shole to my Dexters so it's worth trying.

I think that my coatch did not mean that I should bowl on longer term with planting but more likely use that one of the training methods because it forces you go slower.


Anyway, it will take sometime before I'm able to test that on bowling alley because I was lately knee surgery (ski accident) and I'm not allowed to bowl still on couple of months so I have lot of time to thinking these things.

TonyPR wrote:
If you want to see a video of a planter look up Michael Haugen Jr.

Thanks, I will check that.

TonyPR wrote:
Again, I don't believe learning to plant will fix a speed issue, learning how to transfer energy efficiently from the legs to the ball with a muscle free swing will.

Ok. Good point. Maybe we need open own topic about it later.


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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:37 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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My best wishes for a speedy recovery.


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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:33 am Post Number: #17 Post
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Another excellent planter bowler is Brad Angelo. I don't think planting is a good method to try if yo can already slide, It will definetly reduce your flatspot, if your timing is off and/or you're not precise letting the ball go it will do more harm than good to your game. You will not see many pros planting and that's for a good reason, more flatspot means more margin of error.

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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:07 am Post Number: #18 Post
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2y2 wrote:
Another excellent planter bowler is Brad Angelo. I don't think planting is a good method to try if yo can already slide, It will definetly reduce your flatspot, if your timing is off and/or you're not precise letting the ball go it will do more harm than good to your game. You will not see many pros planting and that's for a good reason, more flatspot means more margin of error.




Dear 2y2

I do agree with sliding but needed to know how essential it is, because even wes malott though he does not sit much on the 5th step or sliding step but still he does a very little slide.

if you turn on the speaker and close your eyes this is what you hear:

1- sound of the slide the screech of the stop
2- the sound of the release
3- the sound of the ball hitting the lane

I personally tried both of them and the flat spot that you were talking about I am not sure that it was the case considering that I had the same swing in both cases and hit the mark about the same as well.

But the physical science behind it was very different:

- when you plant your feet you bring almost all of your momentum to a stop this itself will put some what pressure to your release and follow through.

- When you plant your feet at the end instead of slide, it is a good chance that you will NOT be behind the ball.

but when you do slide you take the momentum that you started from the first step of your approach and then it will leave you through your hand and fingers and into the bowling ball. so the energy travels and leaves you instead of being controlled at the foul line.

one more difference I notice was the ball reaction, the 3 phases of sliding, rolling and hooking was much smoother and with much better timing phases than when you plant your 5th step, apparently when you Plant your feet you put a bit of a force into releasing the ball the result was few 4 pins after hitting a pocket, (we here call it a full pocket. too full in fact that leaves the 4)

These are result of my own test so I am not sure that if I am right or wrong, also I do believe that everyone has there unique style and game play but as I always say if there are so many people doing it then there should be a reason that they are all doing it, you can take that reason and do it your way but still their is "that" reason.


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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:20 am Post Number: #19 Post
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You can understand a lot better how the body transfers energy to the ball by looking at the kinetic chain, maybe this article may clarify it.
http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/slowinski%20july%2012.pdf

Planters are not usually high speed bowlers, speed is mostly generated by the legs, when the ball is at the highest point of the swing is when the body can speed the ball up, you accelerate the ball with the whole body but that acceleration starts with the legs, when you plant that is it, your body won't get further, it stops where your foot stops and even with excellent knee continuation it will advance just a few inches. Planting you cannot push a lot or you might loose balance because of inertia, the distance the ball travels to the front from its highest point is a lot less than when you slide. To slide your body has to be in a much lower position so its center of gravity is lower too that makes the whole system a lot more stable and being more stable means it will transfer more energy to the ball some like to say more leverage. Sliding will give you more room for error, more energy to the ball and it's not only linear speed you can also generate more angular speed (revs).

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 Post subject: Re: step 4 to step 5 and what happends there??
 Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:02 am Post Number: #20 Post
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Funny you say that 2y2, I analyzed a video of myself and concluded exactly what you are saying. My game is limited by my rev dominance and today in practice I told myself I wasn't going to leave the bowling center until I learned to slide. Started with some swing and slide drills and eventually progressed to my full approach and speed increased considerably. It allows better energy transfer from the legs and does two very important things: 1) if you want to pull the ball down from the top of the backswing you can substitute the pulling down with your arm to pushing with your power leg and 2) you can easily keep the forward spine angle you created in your 3rd and 4th step of your 5 step approach. Today was one of those very productive practice sessions for me.


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