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 Post subject: Balance arm / torso
 Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:19 am Post Number: #1 Post
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I wish to question using the balance arm and torso for getting more 'power'. Please explain 'power'.
The free arm swing going back then forward along with body momentum gets the ball speed. How using the torso tension and getting the balance arm moving back during the release get you more, when just the arm swing / body momentum gives you the required ball speed. I am coached this but dont understand it.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance arm / torso
 Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:40 am Post Number: #2 Post
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ballspoint wrote:
I wish to question using the balance arm and torso for getting more 'power'. Please explain 'power'.
The free arm swing going back then forward along with body momentum gets the ball speed. How using the torso tension and getting the balance arm moving back during the release get you more, when just the arm swing / body momentum gives you the required ball speed. I am coached this but dont understand it.

Hello ballspoint, I don't think that the concept of the non-bowling arm going back is correct, you can understand the concept of the kinetic chain by reading this article:
http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/slowinski%20july%2012.pdf

This is also a good reading by the same author that can help you understand energy transfer:
http://www.bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/slowinskidec10.pdf

The concept of power in bowling relates to energy transfer and efficiency, we want the ball to hit hard with less body effort so we need to have efficient body movements that result in less energy loss throughout the approach. There are basically three forms of energy in the bowling approach:

Kinetic energy: (Energy of motion) is produced by footspeed and displacement of our body over the approach. When the ball is moved into the swing in a rounded fashion, the body will realize an increased trunk flexion which moves the center of gravity forward and down.

Potential energy: Is the capability that the bowling ball has to generate movement due to its height at the top of the swing. Here, to be in line with your shot and generate the maximum efficient altitude of the ball we have to turn our shoulders around the vertical axis to make them abduct. Shoulder abduction has a greater range of movement so the ball can be higher without deviating the shot line.

Elastic energy: is produced by angles of knee and foot flexion as well as trunk rotation. When the joints bend, the muscles and tendons stretch. When these recoil, elastic energy is produced. This elastic tension happens very fast so we have to make it act in the right moment.

From release to follow-through we see the convergence of the three forms of energy converge as the bowler completes the downswing and slide transitioning to the release and follow-through. Work or the process of transferring energy is force applied over a distance. Think of this as all of the energy being transferred from the bowler to the bowling ball in the release to follow-through.

This info was taken from the DYDS course by Coach Joe Slowinski

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Last edited by 2y2 on Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance arm / torso
 Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:17 am Post Number: #3 Post
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Thanks 2y2 or your informative reply. I get the boi-mechanics of bowling, no problem there. Watching the ETBF video, they compared javelin throwing to bowling, the balance arm going forward, the torso twisting then the throwing arm coming forward, the torso generating power. Does power equal speed? I am speed dominate, so thats not good for me. I work on my timing, part of that is slowing my feet down abit. So when my coach says the torso gives power??? I say power for what? I am about controling ball momentum, not to fast for good timing. I went to the links supplied but it costs to read any further.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance arm / torso
 Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:54 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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2y2 wrote:
Hello ballspoint, I don't think that the concept of the non-bowling arm going back is correct, you can understand the concept of the kinetic chain by reading this article:
http://elearn.bowlingknowledge.info/pluginfile.php/59/mod_resource/content/4/July_2012_Kinetic_Chain.pdf

This is also a good reading by the same author that can help you understand energy transfer:
http://elearn.bowlingknowledge.info/pluginfile.php/100/mod_resource/content/1/slowinskidec10.pdf

The concept of power in bowling relates to energy transfer and efficiency, we want the ball to hit hard with less body effort so we need to have efficient body movements that result in less energy loss throughout the approach. There are basically three forms of energy in the bowling approach:

Kinetic energy: (Energy of motion) is produced by footspeed and displacement of our body over the approach. When the ball is moved into the swing in a rounded fashion, the body will realize an increased trunk flexion which moves the center of gravity forward and down.

Potential energy: Is the capability that the bowling ball has to generate movement due to its height at the top of the swing. Here, to be in line with your shot and generate the maximum efficient altitude of the ball we have to turn our shoulders around the vertical axis to make them abduct. Shoulder abduction has a greater range of movement so the ball can be higher without deviating the shot line.

Elastic energy: is produced by angles of knee and foot flexion as well as trunk rotation. When the joints bend, the muscles and tendons stretch. When these recoil, elastic energy is produced. This elastic tension happens very fast so we have to make it act in the right moment.

From release to follow-through we see the convergence of the three forms of energy converge as the bowler completes the downswing and slide transitioning to the release and follow-through. Work or the process of transferring energy is force applied over a distance. Think of this as all of the energy being transferred from the bowler to the bowling ball in the release to follow-through.

This info was taken from the DYDS course by Coach Joe Slowinski



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 Post subject: Re: Balance arm / torso
 Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:16 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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I'm sorry, I wrote the wrong links, I've corrected them in my original post above. Also you can look at this one:
http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/june09_article.pdf

Hope it helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance arm / torso
 Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:40 am Post Number: #6 Post
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ballspoint wrote:
Thanks 2y2 or your informative reply. I get the boi-mechanics of bowling, no problem there. Watching the ETBF video, they compared javelin throwing to bowling, the balance arm going forward, the torso twisting then the throwing arm coming forward, the torso generating power. Does power equal speed? I am speed dominate, so thats not good for me. I work on my timing, part of that is slowing my feet down abit. So when my coach says the torso gives power??? I say power for what? I am about controling ball momentum, not to fast for good timing. I went to the links supplied but it costs to read any further.


Unlike the javelin throwing and many other sports, hip rotation is not a relevant part of bowling's kinetic chain, we use our torso rotation to maximize energy transfer. Power is the rate at which energy is converted. In bowling we generate power by doing efficient body movements, I once heard Joe Slowinski say that ALL efficient players have high speed and high revolutions, they have them with minimum effort. As the ETBF coaches say elastic tension generates energy transfer in very short time, so we have to use it just at the right moment. When the swing is at the highest point, everything is combined to add energy to the ball which is already at its highest potential energy situation. Shoulders are completely rotated by the torso from the hips upward like a twisted spring about to be released, arms working in abduction, legs are at their maximum tension ready to propel the body AND the static ball forward. Once the ball is falling, the legs are pushing forward, shoulders are rotating, elbow straightens and then the wrist snaps followed by the thumb exiting the ball, all this in a completely horizontal way to avoid sending energy vertically which will be lost and won't get to the pins.

Power here is the combination of many factors not just speed, the ball has to lose axis rotation and tilt to hit hard, so if speed is high but you still have tilt and rotation it will hit without power. When direction and rotation vectors have the same direction the ball is rolling out and friction is maximum, the ball will not deflect after hitting the pocket.

Power then, is achieving a strong hit with maximum friction and small body effort or better said with the body moving efficiently. Too much speed without rotation is not power, too much rotation without speed isn't either, that's why timing and free swing are so important.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance arm / torso
 Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:58 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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2y2 wrote:

Unlike the javelin throwing and many other sports, hip rotation is not a relevant part of bowling's kinetic chain, we use our torso rotation to maximize energy transfer. Power is the rate at which energy is converted. In bowling we generate power by doing efficient body movements, I once heard Joe Slowinski say that ALL efficient players have high speed and high revolutions, they have them with minimum effort. As the ETBF coaches say elastic tension generates energy transfer in very short time, so we have to use it just at the right moment. When the swing is at the highest point, everything is combined to add energy to the ball which is already at its highest potential energy situation. Shoulders are completely rotated by the torso from the hips upward like a twisted spring about to be released, arms working in abduction, legs are at their maximum tension ready to propel the body AND the static ball forward. Once the ball is falling, the legs are pushing forward, shoulders are rotating, elbow straightens and then the wrist snaps followed by the thumb exiting the ball, all this in a completely horizontal way to avoid sending energy vertically which will be lost and won't get to the pins.

Power here is the combination of many factors not just speed, the ball has to lose axis rotation and tilt to hit hard, so if speed is high but you still have tilt and rotation it will hit without power. When direction and rotation vectors have the same direction the ball is rolling out and friction is maximum, the ball will not deflect after hitting the pocket.

Power then, is achieving a strong hit with maximum friction and small body effort or better said with the body moving efficiently. Too much speed without rotation is not power, too much rotation without speed isn't either, that's why timing and free swing are so important.


Thanks for your comments, efficient bio mechanics get the ball and body in the best possible position for body efficiency. I get that. But to say it adds 'power' is just a use of words to describe a free arm swing. At the end of the day its ball/body momentum that propels the ball down the lane.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance arm / torso
 Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:31 am Post Number: #8 Post
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Yes, it adds power, power in physics is the rate at which energy is delivered or Work per time unit (P=W/t), the more energy delivered on the pins, the more strikes. The best way to deliver power to the pins is by combining both rotation and speed at the right moment; shortly after the ball enters roll phase it will hit the hardest:



(Edited because it wasn't well redacted, thanks TonyPR)

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Last edited by 2y2 on Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance arm / torso
 Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:37 am Post Number: #9 Post
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I agree with 2y2, just ask Belmo or EJ Tacket jejeje :D

By the way 2y2 you meant "shortly before the ball rolls out", correct?


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 Post subject: Re: Balance arm / torso
 Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:14 am Post Number: #10 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
I agree with 2y2, just ask Belmo or EJ Tacket jejeje :D

By the way 2y2 you meant "shortly before the ball rolls out", correct?


Yes, the ball must complete all three phases, to hit hard the ball must roll out about 3 ft before hitting. I'm sorry I did not redacted the text well. My bad.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance arm / torso
 Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:18 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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I understand what you are trying to say 2y2, the confusion is the term "roll out", I am guessing you mean "transition to the roll phase before it hits the pins". In ball motion there are 4 phases and 2 transitions:
1. Skid phase
2. Transition from the Skid phase to the Hook phase
3. Hook phase
4. Transition from the Hook phase to the Roll Phase
5. Roll phase
6. Roll out

We don't want the ball to reach the roll out phase. When a bowler delivers the ball he or she is applying speed, rpms, axis tilt and axis rotation to the ball. When a ball stops skidding and starts hooking it begins to lose the axis tilt and axis rotation the bowler applied on delivery, when these become the same the ball will enter the roll phase and continue to burn axis tilt and axis rotation, when these become zero that is what we call "roll out" and a ball that has "rolled out" will hit softer and deflect much more than a ball that is still in the roll phase. A ball that hits the pins in the hook phase without reaching the roll phase will also hit soft and most likely deflect.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance arm / torso
 Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:38 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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You're absolutely right TonyPr, I used the wrong term but the concept I wanted to stress is when the ball hits harder, using Mo's words: "Axis tilt is in relation to the horizon, so it's the same in either system. True "roll out" occurs when the ball has 0* instantaneous axis rotation and 0* of axis tilt. Using Blueprint's system of measuring axis rotation, a ball stops hooking when the instantaneous axis rotation is 0*, the second transition! the ball will have effective hitting power as long as it still has axis tilt. The ball stops hitting when axis tilt reaches 0*"

Thanks for the correction.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance arm / torso
 Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:09 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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Yep, and that's why the laws of physics do not favor full rollers.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance arm / torso
 Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:04 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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Hi 2Y2, TonyPR, thanks for your comments, but its not about roll out, or what the ball is doing on the lane except its forward momentum given by the bowler. I can stand at the foul line and bowl the ball, without muscling it the ball speed will be slow, if i do a one step my momentum will add more more speed, then a 5 step will give it my normal ball speed. I can muscle it, and call it power to increase ball speed. But its the wording in the above articles and comments using the words power and kinetic energy which confuse me. I can do the modern release for better hooking potential, but isnt that just that, the hand in the best position turning/releasing at the optimal time. Thats not power...its just the hand turning. The ball gets the forward momentum from the bodys forward momentum. The rest is just body movement efficiency.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance arm / torso
 Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:47 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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I apologize, we deviated from your question and went very technical, it happens from time to time around here. I will take the time tonight when I get home to try and formulate an answer in simpler form.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance arm / torso
 Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:25 am Post Number: #16 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
I apologize, we deviated from your question and went very technical, it happens from time to time around here. I will take the time tonight when I get home to try and formulate an answer in simpler form.

No worries, it's still makes an interesting read.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance arm / torso
 Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:24 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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Ok, if we are defining power by speed and revs then here we go:

We generate energy throughout the approach and transfer it to the ball on the delivery. As you said, we generate speed with the legs and our swing must be loose so it can be on time for efficient energy transfer, too early or too late is not optimum. Revs are generated at release by the fingers rotating the ball and the lower they are, the more distance they have to travel, the more revs... now this must be loose and not forced... to get our fingers in a strong position we must create a good flat spot on our downswing with our forward spine tilt, knee bend, our timing and our slide... now a ball is a heavy object so the closer it is to our body the more we can manage the weight so the swing plane should be close to our center of gravity and release next to the ankle and under our head to maximize leverage, that's why two handed bowlers are so efficient at transfering the energy they create on their fast approach, by keeping the ball close to their cg and delivering it at the strongest leverage position possible. The power added by elastic tension of the torso and by the swim stroke of your balance arm is small in comparison to the other aspects of generating power I have mentioned.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance arm / torso
 Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:10 am Post Number: #18 Post
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ballspoint wrote:
Thanks 2y2 or your informative reply. I get the boi-mechanics of bowling, no problem there. Watching the ETBF video, they compared javelin throwing to bowling, the balance arm going forward, the torso twisting then the throwing arm coming forward, the torso generating power. Does power equal speed? I am speed dominate, so thats not good for me. I work on my timing, part of that is slowing my feet down abit. So when my coach says the torso gives power??? I say power for what? I am about controling ball momentum, not to fast for good timing. I went to the links supplied but it costs to read any further.


Hi

just curios about the ETBF video about the comparison being made. could you share the link please?

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Balance arm / torso
 Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:25 am Post Number: #19 Post
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQfSHD_Gtrg

It is a long presentation but very informative and also quite funny...

When giving the javelin example I think that what they are trying to ilustrate is the advantage of opening the shoulders vs keeping them squared...


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 Post subject: Re: Balance arm / torso
 Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:07 am Post Number: #20 Post
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ballspoint wrote:
Hi 2Y2, TonyPR, thanks for your comments, but its not about roll out, or what the ball is doing on the lane except its forward momentum given by the bowler. I can stand at the foul line and bowl the ball, without muscling it the ball speed will be slow, if i do a one step my momentum will add more more speed, then a 5 step will give it my normal ball speed. I can muscle it, and call it power to increase ball speed. But its the wording in the above articles and comments using the words power and kinetic energy which confuse me. I can do the modern release for better hooking potential, but isnt that just that, the hand in the best position turning/releasing at the optimal time. Thats not power...its just the hand turning. The ball gets the forward momentum from the bodys forward momentum. The rest is just body movement efficiency.


In terms of physics, it is power indeed, the thing here is that I feel you are considering power just as forward momentum but we have many energy forms coming into place. Only forward momentum won't always result in strikes. We have rotational energy and translational energy, so we have two different vectors, so we have two types of work (Understanding work as W=Fd) To have hitting power both vectors have to be aligned, and that's why the better reaction is that in which speed and revs are matched, I've seen really slow balls hitting as trucks but when measured you notice that it is a well matched bowler, and in the same pair bowlers with a lot of speed but few revs are hitting like peaches. So, in bowling it is many factors that add OR subtract power (In strict physics meaning), we're talking of vectors of different kinds but all of them have magnitud and direction. Power, as I said is a rate at which energy is spent, so using the P=W/t we can derive it to P=Fv F is force and v is velocity, but remember we have two types of movement, translation and rotation so that formula applies to both the only difference is that we have to express the rotational energy in its own terms [In rotational energy v is w (lowercase omega)]. Now add to this entry angle and friction (friction is a force therefore a vector which also has a direction). You have to use your body in such a manner to make all of these factors work in your favor to spend as much energy (Traslational, rotational, etc) in the right moment and the right way to make strikes. Not just speed. Potential energy is relative to whatever point of reference you want, in bowling the best reference is the floor, kinetic energy is actually happening when the ball starts falling making that interchange from potential to kinetic energy. So Yes there hare many forms of energy here, I hope I can help resolving the confusion with the terms but they are real.

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