Opening shoulder without rotating them (like Mike Fagan)

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LittleTiger
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Opening shoulder without rotating them (like Mike Fagan)

Post by LittleTiger »

I took coaching session from different coach than which with I normally training (just to get other opinion) and he recommend that I should try "push" chest closer to floor.

I'm able to do that but now I cannot understand that how to prevent my shoulders rotating when backswing goes above of shoulder level?


My current approach looks like this:
I can not prevent my shoulders rotation.PNG

When I would like to get shoulder opening like Mike Fagan does it without rotation his shoulders:
Image

Is that possible to reach with enough shoulder stretching or is there some other trick which I need also to learn?

Should normal person shoulder be able to open that much?


I already know that I should move my arm more away from my body to allow shoulder abduction but even I try to do that without ball I'm not able to get my hand much over shoulder level.
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Re: Opening shoulder without rotating them (like Mike Fagan)

Post by TonyPR »

Fagan seems to be very flexible by nature, my advice would be not to try to imitate a player's style exactly but rather try to develop your own style taking the pro player's style as reference. The main issue I see in your back photo is that your swing goes way to the left of your head, ideally it should be in line with your head. Do you miss often to the right? If not then you have found a way to compensate on your downswing. Post a video if you can so we can analyze it, back and side view would be nice, remember to follow video posting requirements:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1163" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

About backswing height I wouldn't be worried about getting it higher, to me backswing is more related to timing than to ball speed and ball speed is a product of timing and leverage which comes from proper footwork. Having a swing at or slightly above shoulder height is perfectly fine if that is what comes naturally, the most important thing is that you open your shoulders at the correct time to allow for a free backswing which leads to a slight pause at the top of the backswing before it starts to come down by gravity(not pulling), this would not happen(because of elastic tension in the shoulder) if for example we were to bowl with square shoulders like what was taught in the 1980's(shoulders squared to the foul line).

In order to open the shoulders at the correct time your left foot (3rd step on a 5 step approach) should be moving forward while your backswing is moving back. If your ball side step is moving forward as your swing is moving back (late timing) it is almost impossible to create that pause at the top of the backswing(because of elastic tension in the shoulder). This is why a side view video will help in this analysis(timing). Hope this helps.
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Re: Opening shoulder without rotating them (like Mike Fagan)

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TonyPR wrote:Fagan seems to be very flexible by nature, my advice would be not to try to imitate a player's style exactly but rather try to develop your own style taking the pro player's style as reference.
Yes, I try take these as reference but to be able to do that it is important to understand what naturally "normal" people should be able to do with enough training. Fagan of course is very extreme example but still I'm interested to understand that should normal person be able to get shoulder opening like it is on picture (that is not even most extreme example from Fagan)?

TonyPR wrote:The main issue I see in your back photo is that your swing goes way to the left of your head, ideally it should be in line with your head.
Yes it goes but my current opinion is that root cause of that is that my shoulder is not flexible enough to open more so my shoulders rotates to wrong direction when backswing goes over shoulder level.

TonyPR wrote:Do you miss often to the right? If not then you have found a way to compensate on your downswing. Post a video if you can so we can analyze it, back and side view would be nice
Well, I randomly miss left or right. Depends where I have focusing. That why there is no much sense to post any video(s) now. I need first get back to idea how to do similar shots.


TonyPR wrote:About backswing height I wouldn't be worried about getting it higher, to me backswing is more related to timing than to ball speed and ball speed is a product of timing and leverage which comes from proper footwork. Having a swing at or slightly above shoulder height is perfectly fine if that is what comes naturally,
Well higher backswing feels more naturally for me so I would like to keep it like that.

TonyPR wrote:the most important thing is that you open your shoulders at the correct time to allow for a free backswing which leads to a slight pause at the top of the backswing before it starts to come down by gravity(not pulling), this would not happen(because of elastic tension in the shoulder) if for example we were to bowl with square shoulders like what was taught in the 1980's(shoulders squared to the foul line).
Yes, I know but now I trying to find best way to do this...

TonyPR wrote:In order to open the shoulders at the correct time your left foot (3rd step on a 5 step approach) should be moving forward while your backswing is moving back. If your ball side step is moving forward as your swing is moving back (late timing) it is almost impossible to create that pause at the top of the backswing(because of elastic tension in the shoulder). This is why a side view video will help in this analysis(timing). Hope this helps.
Well we have looked about timing a lot with my coach and I know that my timing is somewhere about correct or half step late. Depending how much I focus to start "drop" ball early enough.
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Re: Opening shoulder without rotating them (like Mike Fagan)

Post by bowl1820 »

Just for reference:

How to Find Your Proper Bowling Shoulder Rotation

Published on Jun 27, 2016

Bowling is a sport that cannot strictly adhere to a one-size-fits-all model. To be a successful bowler, you have to adapt the components of your stroke to suit your capabilities and style. For instance, your natural rev rate and launch angle determine where you should release the ball at the foul line, as well as what your posture and body position should look like at the point of release.

[youtube][/youtube]


Also might take a look at this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=12556

The Video from that thread:
[youtube][/youtube]
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Re: Opening shoulder without rotating them (like Mike Fagan)

Post by LittleTiger »

TonyPR wrote:The main issue I see in your back photo is that your swing goes way to the left of your head, ideally it should be in line with your head.
It was shocking to notice that how far side of the body hand actually need to be that it don't go behind of back on backswing.

Here is video about how I now think that it goes. Have I got it right?
[youtube][/youtube]


TonyPR wrote:Post a video if you can so we can analyze it, back and side view would be nice
This was best shot which I was able to do today (backswing is little bit lower and not some much behind my back than I normally have):
[youtube][/youtube]

Do you have good ideas how to get ball more to right on backswing? I tried to start swing towards to seven pin but what actually happens then is that I walk more to left and swing starts still to same direction and goes behind my back.
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Re: Opening shoulder without rotating them (like Mike Fagan)

Post by GBuck »

LittleTiger wrote:Do you have good ideas how to get ball more to right on backswing? I tried to start swing towards to seven pin but what actually happens then is that I walk more to left and swing starts still to same direction and goes behind my back.
I would like to know the same. I have this similar issue.
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Re: Opening shoulder without rotating them (like Mike Fagan)

Post by stevespo »

I'm not a coach, but here are two suggestions.

Norm Duke (in his video) recommends that you start your approach with the ball closer to the centerline of your body, and not inline with your shoulder (like Mark Baker and others recommend). As you hinge/pushaway, move the ball slightly left and it will naturally go right and end up closer to the position you're describing. It can also be used to create the "figure 8" swing used by a some bowlers.

Brian Voss (in Bare Bones Bowling) describes a motion you can practice without a ball. As the hand reaches the peak of the backswing, open your hand, hinge at the elbow and touch your ear. If your arm is behind your back, you can't do it. It's hard to describe, but you can practice in front of a mirror and it should make more sense. I actually found this one pretty helpful.

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Re: Opening shoulder without rotating them (like Mike Fagan)

Post by ChrisTan »

stevespo wrote:I'm not a coach, but here are two suggestions.

Norm Duke (in his video) recommends that you start your approach with the ball closer to the centerline of your body, and not inline with your shoulder (like Mark Baker and others recommend). As you hinge/pushaway, move the ball slightly left and it will naturally go right and end up closer to the position you're describing. It can also be used to create the "figure 8" swing used by a some bowlers.

Brian Voss (in Bare Bones Bowling) describes a motion you can practice without a ball. As the hand reaches the peak of the backswing, open your hand, hinge at the elbow and touch your ear. If your arm is behind your back, you can't do it. It's hard to describe, but you can practice in front of a mirror and it should make more sense. I actually found this one pretty helpful.

Steve
If we move and drop/unhinge/pushaway to the left doesnt that make our hips in the way ? Shouldnt the drop be a perfect straight line with the hips opened up along with spine tilt to create a swing plane ?

If you could be so kind to post a picture/video of yourself doing that practice from Brian Voss ? I could imagine it and i sort of did it while sitting down but i want to make sure
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Re: Opening shoulder without rotating them (like Mike Fagan)

Post by JMerrell »

LittleTiger wrote:Do you have good ideas how to get ball more to right on backswing?
Your problem is not how to get your swing more to the right at the top, but rather how to get your head further left.

I’ve attached a slide sequence comparing you to Michael Fagan.
There are a lot of resources on the internet with advice as to the “proper” way to bowl.
Be careful what you've read and more importantly how you interrupt it.
Your position in OJ3 would be great if you bowled two-handed.

You
1) At address in OJ1 your setup looks very good.

2) In OJ2 your ball placement looks good and does your lateral spine tilt (green line). Look at the two red dotted lines, one on your right hip, the other through the center of your head. Particularly pay attention to the distance between these two lines.

3) As the ball moves back from OJ2 to OJ3, your upper body moves forward and to the right. This move increases the distance from your right hip to the center of your head.

4) From OJ3 to OJ4 your right arm swings straight up as your left shoulder rotates in front of the right as it should. But with your head positioned so far right the swing at the top will never be in line with the head.

Michael
1) From MF2 to MF3 as his swing moves back there is a slight increase in the distance from his right hip to the center of his head. Notice how close his right arm is to his body, look at yours. His upper body has remained very stable.

2) From there his swing moves straight up, just like yours. But his is in line with his head.

So, let’s focus your attention on the position of your head.

1) From OJ2 to OJ3 focus on maintaining your lateral spine tilt (green line). No movement of your upper body forward or to the right as your swing moves downward from ball placement position in OJ2.

2) Looking at OJ2, if nothing moved but your swing, it would come back close to your body and under the head. From there it could then swing up in line with your head.

3) A much simpler move…….but you must keep the upper body quiet as the swing moves back and up to the top.
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Re: Opening shoulder without rotating them (like Mike Fagan)

Post by JJakobsen »

What I was taught at the ETBF level 1 was to always try to keep head and ball in line. This is so that where you start when you get up is where you end up, so you can pre-aim a target at the arrows, breakpoint or whatever, and you actually get there from the board you wanted the ball to hit the lane on. If you want the ball down on 17 at the foul line and hit the 13 board at breakpoint, you should be able to aim there before you start walking. How can you when your ball isn't consistently in the line of what you aim with, your eyes?
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Re: Opening shoulder without rotating them (like Mike Fagan)

Post by LittleTiger »

JMerrell wrote:Your problem is not how to get your swing more to the right at the top, but rather how to get your head further left.
Cool. That is something which I like very much. Totally new way of thinking which have not come to my mind. Thanks :)

JMerrell wrote:I’ve attached a slide sequence comparing you to Michael Fagan.
This is something incredibly cool that instead of saying that I should not try do something like pros are doing you show me what I do wrong what they do right ;) This is very important for person like me who really want to understand cause and effect relationship.

Now I also understand what that coach tried to say for me. If you compare OJ4 and MF4 you can see that Mike's chest is closer to floor than mine. I probably just understood wrong how to do that.

JMerrell wrote:So, let’s focus your attention on the position of your head.
Yes, I definitely will do that. I had only half of hour today for training and already noticed that it is much harder than it sounds.

jimmydanny wrote:If you want the ball down on 17 at the foul line and hit the 13 board at breakpoint, you should be able to aim there before you start walking. How can you when your ball isn't consistently in the line of what you aim with, your eyes?
I agree, it is not possible but now I have had problem that different things happens on approach than I trying to do...
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Re: Opening shoulder without rotating them (like Mike Fagan)

Post by JJakobsen »

LittleTiger wrote: I agree, it is not possible but now I have had problem that different things happens on approach than I trying to do...
It was more of a statement as to what you should aim to do, not how or even if you are capable of it.

That part I leave to more experienced coaches like JMerrell!
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Re: Opening shoulder without rotating them (like Mike Fagan)

Post by TonyPR »

Jim analyzed your video, follow his advice, he knows what he's doing when it comes to video analysis.
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