Switched to 2 handed one week ago

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brood915
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Switched to 2 handed one week ago

Post by brood915 »

Hello. I switched to 2 handed a week ago due to wrist + thumb pain.
My form is terrible at the moment. I studied Belmonte's approach videos a lot but I still cant figure out how to swing the ball freely when my left hand is on the ball. This messes up everything. I believe my footwork is not too bad as I can do the skip step. Also, I keep losing my balance at the foul line. I believe this happens because I dont raise myself up as I release. Please critique my approach and give advice. Thanks in advance!!

P.S. This is a terrible angle, but this was the best I could do as I went alone tonight. Thanks!!

[youtube][/youtube]
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Re: Switched to 2 handed one week ago

Post by TonyPR »

Ok, I'll give this one a try. I am a two hander myself and have been working on my game seriously for over a year now, my first advice would be to stick to it, if you really want to bowl 2 handed don't bowl one handed again. That was the first thing that slowed my progress but as soon as I decided to stick to it I started to get better. Practice as often as you can and make sure you are practicing your form correctly as practice does not make perfect, practice makes permanent. Practice one thing at a time and when you do, forget about score. Do lots of drills, it takes about 1,500 repetitions to learn to do something unconsciously, if you intentionally miss the first shot of every frame you get 20-21 shots per game so you do the math. Also, don't practice more than an hour at a time and always focus on only 1 skill. Now if you are willing to do this then keep reading:

Your footwork is not bad, always try to keep the ball under your head from address to release, this is why our second and third step of a 5 step approach go left, to get our body out of the balls path. The main issue I see in your game is that you are going around the ball at release, keep your elbow tucked in and your hand behind the ball, ball under your head and give blood to the pins when you release. What that means is that the crease of your elbow, where the nurse usually takes your blood sample, should face the pins at release. Follow through towards the face. Don't worry about revs, they will come effortlessly. Don't muscle the ball with your upper body, just let it swing, speed comes from the legs.

I will attach a link to Joe Slowinski's two handed drills, focus on the foul line drill and the 1 step drill. Slowinski plants his foot on the one step drill, don't do that, do the 1 step drill sliding and remember keep the ball under your head or further in if you want and follow through towards your face giving blood to the pins. Also, to loosen your swing you can asume the foul line drill position and just rock the ball forward and back keeping the shoulders loose, this one you can do at home just don't let go of the ball unless you are out in the yard jejeje.


" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good luck and don't give up!
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Re: Switched to 2 handed one week ago

Post by brood915 »

Thank you. I am gonna definitely stick with it.
It is way more fun and saves a lot of time for me since I dont have to play with tapes and talk to useless PSOs anymore.
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Re: Switched to 2 handed one week ago

Post by MegaMav »

brood915 wrote:Thank you. I am gonna definitely stick with it.
It is way more fun and saves a lot of time for me since I dont have to play with tapes and talk to useless PSOs anymore.
A result of more widespread bad fitters.
This game must improve in that aspect.
We cannot expect bowlers to enjoy themselves and continue to bowl when they're in pain and injured.
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Re: Switched to 2 handed one week ago

Post by brood915 »

TonyPR wrote: Good luck and don't give up!
My backswing is a lot better now, but I cant straighten my arms on downswing.
Do you know any reasons behind this? Is my timing off? Should I increase my flat spot?

I think I should post my vids here instead of the certified coach sec for Jim's analysis as I am still having problems with basic stuff.

Here's the back view:
[youtube][/youtube]


Side view:
[youtube][/youtube]
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Re: Switched to 2 handed one week ago

Post by gunso »

Try throwing a houseball with a lighter weight and insert your fingers deeper and see if the problem for the chicken wing is just the weight of the ball
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Re: Switched to 2 handed one week ago

Post by TonyPR »

Your side video looks pretty good, timing is good, slide is good, balance is good.

As you say your issue is with your elbow, it flares out outside your head. Remember ball under head at all times, follow through towards the face. How many games of only drills not scoring have you practiced? You will never learn how to not flare your elbow by doing full approach after full approach. Forget about doing full approaches for now. Stand at the foul line doing your release position with your legs, ball next to left ankle, pick it up a few inches from the floor with both hands and keep it close to your ankle, elbows straight right hand under ball. Swing it forward then back then forward and release. Focus on keeping your elbows straight and alingned in front of each other. Focus on form not speed. Again don't do a full approach. Do this drill for 3 games in a row and 2 days in a row. Again don't do a full approach yet, you will only go back to what you are doing now, we are teaching your body to do something in a whole different way. Video the drill, post it after you have done at least 3 games in a row for two days. After I am sure you have mastered this drill I will give you your next homework. Again, I can't stress on this enough, don't do full approaches for now (except if you play a league then only do them when you are playing the league for score), for now your practice will only be the foul line drill, trust me and be patient, it will work. Oh and use your regular ball to do this drill, release it keeping that elbow in. Do your homework and report back.
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Re: Switched to 2 handed one week ago

Post by kajmk »

Brood, the method of breaking down the game into component parts and the use of drills is a proven concept. You will make progress if you follow the good advice given and have patience. The ceiling at the Sistine chapel was not painted with spray paint and rollers.
Another learning technique not to use a ball, but some prop, a weight, a Pilates ball.
Drill at home in front of a mirror, do it the way you do it now and watch, then do it the way Tony wrote and watch. Associate the feeling with the view. This comparison helps you feel the difference.

Cheers!
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Re: Switched to 2 handed one week ago

Post by kajmk »

Additionally, I stumbled across this today ...

For those interested in the two handed style, this video comparing several two handers, which is augmented with swing tracing graphics, may interest you.

If you have software, consider downloading the YouTube for study.
Video yourself, do side by side analysis.

[youtube]https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Mu9p_DeoqG8[/youtube]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11049&hilit=Software" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
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Re: Switched to 2 handed one week ago

Post by brood915 »

Thank you!
I will report to you after I do my homework!
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Re: Switched to 2 handed one week ago

Post by spr3wr »

http://s943.photobucket.com/user/spr3wr ... sort=3&o=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Other than touching your fingers in the set up the first 2 pic look good . The 3rd pic you can see how Jason has open his shoulders compare to you. The 4th pic you can see how closed your shoulders are , Jason chest is pointing towards the camera. This is why you have trouble with keeping 2 hands on the ball. Keeping with the 4th pic notice how far the swing has dropped. Keeping the shoulders open will correct this putting you in better timing.As of now your timing is early. In the 5th pic you can see that your suppose to already have your elbow straighten out with your hand under the ball. I don't think you can because of not touching your fingers in the setup . The last pic since you don't have your hand under the ball you can't snap the elbow or take the balance hand off the ball.

http://s943.photobucket.com/user/spr3wr ... sort=3&o=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The early timing and you just started bowling 2 hands leads to bad balance. Do the drills posted by TonyPR and kajmk and watch the videos.


1)Correct your fingers in the setup.
2)During the backswing learn to open the shoulders more.
3)After your hand is in a better setup position and you learn to open your shoulders , unlock the elbow as the ball gets to the lowest position in the forward swing. Remember we want the ball to land like a airplane touching down..... smooth.
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Re: Switched to 2 handed one week ago

Post by brood915 »

spr3wr wrote:http://s943.photobucket.com/user/spr3wr ... sort=3&o=1

Other than touching your fingers in the set up the first 2 pic look good . The 3rd pic you can see how Jason has open his shoulders compare to you. The 4th pic you can see how closed your shoulders are , Jason chest is pointing towards the camera. This is why you have trouble with keeping 2 hands on the ball. Keeping with the 4th pic notice how far the swing has dropped. Keeping the shoulders open will correct this putting you in better timing.As of now your timing is early. In the 5th pic you can see that your suppose to already have your elbow straighten out with your hand under the ball. I don't think you can because of not touching your fingers in the setup . The last pic since you don't have your hand under the ball you can't snap the elbow or take the balance hand off the ball.

http://s943.photobucket.com/user/spr3wr ... sort=3&o=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The early timing and you just started bowling 2 hands leads to bad balance. Do the drills posted by TonyPR and kajmk and watch the videos.


1)Correct your fingers in the setup.
2)During the backswing learn to open the shoulders more.
3)After your hand is in a better setup position and you learn to open your shoulders , unlock the elbow as the ball gets to the lowest position in the forward swing. Remember we want the ball to land like a airplane touching down..... smooth.

Thank you so much for the tips. I will try to do the drills next week.
I am a bit confused by what you said about my fingers position. Am I supposed to touch my fingers or not? Are you saying my balance hand should be more on the top of the ball?
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Re: Switched to 2 handed one week ago

Post by spr3wr »

I am a bit confused by what you said about my fingers position. Am I supposed to touch my fingers or not?
I would just get them closer in order to get the hand under the ball better at the release point. It almost looks like your fingers separate a little during the swing. I don't think you can straighten out your bowling arm because your hanging onto the ball so it doesn't drop. That's why your right elbow is bent during the release point. The feel is that of Cradling the ball . So by keeping the hands closer together you should straighten out the bowling arm.

http://s943.photobucket.com/user/spr3wr ... sort=3&o=0

http://s943.photobucket.com/user/spr3wr ... sort=3&o=1


In the pic below notice how high the bowling elbow goes.

http://www.bowlersmart.com/bowling-blog ... o_osku.jpg
Are you saying my balance hand should be more on the top of the ball?

Your already on top of the ball enough in your setup
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Re: Switched to 2 handed one week ago

Post by brood915 »

TonyPR wrote:Do your homework and report back.
kajmk wrote:Brood, the method of breaking down the game into component parts and the use of drills is a proven concept.
Cheers!
spr3wr wrote: Do the drills posted by TonyPR and kajmk and watch the videos.

Hello, guys! I did my homework!
I did the drill for 2 days (couldnt do 3 in a row on the 2nd day tho..).

Problems I noticed in the vid I filmed on the 2nd day are:
1. I kept moving my arm to the left to avoid hitting my face during the follow thru.. (Is this okay?)
2. It seems like the position of my trail leg is wrong..
3. I now can keep my hand behind the ball, but NOT under the ball.

I would highly appreciate it if you could tell me what I can do to fix these issues while I am doing this drill.

Also, should I start doing one step/3 steps drill along with this? Thanks a bunch!

[youtube][/youtube]
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Re: Switched to 2 handed one week ago

Post by JMerrell »

Your upper body position at the foul line is wrong.
see below
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Re: Switched to 2 handed one week ago

Post by brood915 »

JMerrell wrote:Your upper body position at the foul line is wrong.
see below
Thank you for the feedback.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I was trying to copy Slowinski. It looks like his upper body position is not the same as Belmonte's as well. Should I position my body like Belmonte at foul line to do this drill instead then?
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Re: Switched to 2 handed one week ago

Post by TonyPR »

brood915 very good you decided to practice drills, I believe what Jim is saying is thet your spine is bent lower than 90* (too much bent). Slowinski is famous for unorthodox methods of teaching but they work, this drill worked for me in improving my release. Sometimes when doing drills we exagerate the motion to get a feel for something you want to learn and I believe this drill done as prescribed does that with the 90* bend and the elbow in front of the other. In reality we don't bowl that way but it is evidently helping you with the flaring in of the elbow on the backswing.

Now to answer your questions:
1) Don't try to deliver the ball with force, swing it gently and focus on form. Stay down, you are popping up at the end. Be sure to extend your arms to project the ball. Follow through doesn't have to be in front of the face, I do it that way, Belmo follows through toward his right ear, Slowinski advices to follow through towards the left ear, the important thing to watch here is not to flare out the elbow while you are letting go of the ball. Keep the elbows alingned for the whole swing right until your left hand leaves the ball, think ball side elbow goes forward.

2) For your balance leg let the upper part or tip of your shoe instead of the sole be the part in contact with the lane, make sure the leg is about 45 degrees:
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

3) How much your hand remains under the ball depends on how close your left hand fingers are to your right hand fingers.

You are doing better, keep up at it, you can practice 1 game foul line drill, 1 game 1 step drill and then the third game alternate between 1 shot foul line/1 shot 1 step. I am currently in communication with Jim in the Certified Coaching section trying to develop a 1 step drill, feel free to give it a try or do the much simpler drill by Slowinski. You are on the right track, keep it up and stay positive.
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Re: Switched to 2 handed one week ago

Post by brood915 »

TonyPR wrote:brood915 very good you decided to practice drills, I believe what Jim is saying is thet your spine is bent lower than 90* (too much bent). Slowinski is famous for unorthodox methods of teaching but they work, this drill worked for me in improving my release. Sometimes when doing drills we exagerate the motion to get a feel for something you want to learn and I believe this drill done as prescribed does that with the 90* bend and the elbow in front of the other. In reality we don't bowl that way but it is evidently helping you with the flaring in of the elbow on the backswing.

Now to answer your questions:
1) Don't try to deliver the ball with force, swing it gently and focus on form. Stay down, you are popping up at the end. Be sure to extend your arms to project the ball. Follow through doesn't have to be in front of the face, I do it that way, Belmo follows through toward his right ear, Slowinski advices to follow through towards the left ear, the important thing to watch here is not to flare out the elbow while you are letting go of the ball. Keep the elbows alingned for the whole swing right until your left hand leaves the ball, think ball side elbow goes forward.

2) For your balance leg let the upper part or tip of your shoe instead of the sole be the part in contact with the lane, make sure the leg is about 45 degrees:
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

3) How much your hand remains under the ball depends on how close your left hand fingers are to your right hand fingers.

You are doing better, keep up at it, you can practice 1 game foul line drill, 1 game 1 step drill and then the third game alternate between 1 shot foul line/1 shot 1 step. I am currently in communication with Jim in the Certified Coaching section trying to develop a 1 step drill, feel free to give it a try or do the much simpler drill by Slowinski. You are on the right track, keep it up and stay positive.
Thank you. I will report back after I master these drills!
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Re: Switched to 2 handed one week ago

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TonyPR wrote:brood915 very good you decided to practice drills, I believe what Jim is saying is thet your spine is bent lower than 90* (too much bent). Slowinski is famous for unorthodox methods of teaching but they work, this drill worked for me in improving my release. Sometimes when doing drills we exagerate the motion to get a feel for something you want to learn and I believe this drill done as prescribed does that with the 90* bend and the elbow in front of the other. In reality we don't bowl that way but it is evidently helping you with the flaring in of the elbow on the backswing.
Hey tony. I took a coaching lesson from a silver coach tonight. I am not sure if her lesson helped me a lot as she pointed out what I was already working on. Also, I found what she was teaching me was kind of different from what I learned about two-handed bowling. She was very against two-handed style too...

Here is the list of what she taught me:

1. Start my pushaway at my 3rd step (5 step approach) to fix my early timing

2. Follow through by making a "V" with my arms (Dont we need to pull our balance arm down nearby our left hip to keep our balance?)

3. Rotate my hands while making "V" to make my ball hook more (I thought we dont need to TRY to hook the ball? Ive been trying to stay under the ball instead.. loading and then unloading like Belmo)

4. Hips forward + keep my balance leg down on the lane
- She told me Belmo NEVER puts his balance leg up at release, and I told her he does it all the time. She was trying to prove I was wrong and showed me a vid. And obviously, I was right. And then she said "he does pull his leg up but still, he doesnt lean forward as much as I do)
- Even though she was right that I was leaning forward way too much, the fact that she didnt know most two handed bowlers lift their balance legs up was kind of bugging me..


5. Bend my knee more. (Belmo doesnt really bend his knee that much). She told me I need to get low as much as Norm Duke does..

What are your thoughts on these? Thank you in advance. Meanwhile, I will just keep working on the drills you suggested.
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Re: Switched to 2 handed one week ago

Post by TonyPR »

Different coaches will have different points of views, the disadvantage we have as two handers is that there are not many coaches with experience coaching two handers. Also being certified doesn't make you a great coach. I am very new to coaching, got certified just last May but I have been obsessed with the game ever since I got back about 3 years ago from a 25 yr break. My daughter who was 8 at the time got hooked so I decided to learn as much as possible to help her develop competitively and also to help myself with the come back. I have been lucky enough to be friends with coach Mike Perez who coached the PR national team for many years. I have also had the privilege to meet and take a seminar with hall of fame coach Jeri Edwards who is currently team PR's coach. Along the way I have been a bowling alley rat and have made many friends who are in the pro shop business and many local athletes as well as some PBA pros. Bowling Chat has been one of the best resources too with guys like Jim Merrell, Dean Champ, Mo Pinel, Eric Hartwell and others who have been kind and patient enough to answer all my questions. I am also a nerd and a Physics fan and have enjoyed reading many articles by other great bowling minds and also visited Kegel and spent a day picking Del Warren's brain.

It is very important to know who you listen to as some may have the best intention of helping but may not have either the knowledge or the experience to do it right. I don't have much experience as I have only coached my daughter for 3 years and have recently started as part of the coaching staff in our youth league but I am very confident in my knowledge. I am currently coaching 3 two handers, one is 11, one is 15 and myself 39 years old.

It is important that we understand that just as there are many styles of 1 handers there are many styles of two handers and Belmo may or may not be the one who's style will feel more natural to you. I recommend you watch videos of Kyle Troup, Anthony Simonsen, Jesper Svenson, Shawn Maldonado, Osku Palerma and Brian Valenta and you will see their styles will be different in many ways.

I will give you my opinion of the points you are outlining. It is only my opinion and I am in now way saying your coach is right or wrong.

First, if she is against two handers then why take a class with her in the first place?

1) When you start the ball in the third step of a 5 step approach you are creating late timing, your right foot will be moving forward while your right arm will be moving back towards the backswing. If you try to open your shoulders this will create elastic tension in your hips and shoulders as they will be moving in oposite directions. This style of late timing may work if you decide to be more of a straighter traditional approach player but will be largely dependant of your flexibility, think Kyle Troup.

2) Belmo keeps his balance arm low and it works for him. I like to do my swim stroke up and in an angle higher than parallel to the ground as I feel it helps keep my bowling shoulder under my head but keep in mind I follow through towards my face like Sean Rash does. Whatever works for you is fine as long as it doesn't give you shoulder rotation problems (over rotation, under rotation).

3) " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

4) Most two handed bowlers will have the balance leg up in the air as this will help get your spine angle lower and will aleviate stress on your back from trying to bend your back while keeping the balance leg on the floor (Del Warren told me this one and he has a lot of experience with two handers). Belmo does put his leg on the ground to post his shot after he delivers the ball. The two important things are: not to fall off the shot and not to lean so much forward as to have your head in front of your foot. Kyle Troup does not lift his balance leg but again, he is very flexible and has a more "traditional" style.

5) Bending the knee is a good thing, it helps your release to be close to your ankle and helps with creating a good flat spot which, along with a good slide and forward spine tilt, also aid in creating a good flat spot. A good long flat spot will help in having a smooth release by giving you time and margin of error to get under the ball and do the yoyo release into the lane (never lifting up).

-Finally a word on tempo. I am currently working on my tempo, this is a very important part and should not be overlooked. Two handers are thaught to do: one.....two.....three-four-sliiiide
I am currently trying a more traditional timing which seems to be helping me smooth things out, I am doing 4 steps so my tempo is more like: one-two...four-sliiiide which for five steps would be: one...two-three...four-sliiide
This is what is now working for me but it may or may not work for you, I am not recommending this to you, just giving it as an example to show there is no cookie cutter approach and we should try to develop our own style instead of trying to copy someone else's.

I know this is a lot of info so take time to digest it and remember to work on only one part of your game at a time.

Good luck and stay positive.
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