Critique Needed - Dont Hold Back!!

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KrisW77
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Critique Needed - Dont Hold Back!!

Post by KrisW77 »

Having recently acquired a camera that does Slow Motion videos, I decided to record a few shots to see how it fared picking up my bowling action. (Previous attempts with a 30fps camera just produced an unusable blur!!)

Now that I have been able to watch myself, I am none the wiser for knowing why I am struggling with my game. It's just gone downhill since I tried to adjust my style to be less muscled and lofty.

Comments are most welcome.

I am of the opinion that I need to sort out the release, and once that becomes comfortable, I can iron out the rest of the approach. But I just don't know what is important to fix.
I don't know whether the release is ok and better than before, and I just need to adjust layouts.
What I do know is that most of the time it feels awful, and when it comes off the hand, it feels like the thumb and fingers are coming out at virtually the same time. Also when I just hold the ball and swing it, all the weight feels like it hangs on my thumb - so I don't know whether it is just a Pitch issue.

Info on the Videos
Kris W - Slow Motion Approach (Feb'15) - recorded at 120fps
http://youtu.be/cqkdmOJEs3c
Kris W - Slow Motion Release (Feb'15) - recorded at 240fps
http://youtu.be/7Js4bs02ITE
Lane conditions were somewhat dry - getting only an oil ring or two
(At my normal centre, I get around 10 oil rings, and am having to play straight down 10 board)
& Yes - I know I didn't quite get the tape for the PAP quite in the right place!
I think the Rev Rate calculates as 515RPM and Ball Speed off hand about 18mph

History of Me!
I used to have even less of a knee bend, and launch the ball a good 10-12 ft down the lane (although not with much upward movement), but was always confined to playing out and in. Muscling of the ball was even more exaggerated than it is now.
I used to play around 20+ games a week, but now only bowl less than 3 (ie One league night (3 out of 4 weeks), and No Practice)
My ball layouts haven't significantly altered since I started to change my style, although the ball tracks/ PAP have altered significantly.
My PAP used to be approx. 5 1/2 Right x 1/4 Up, but it is now around 3 3/4 Right x 1 3/4 Up

If anything else would be useful, just let me know!

Thanks

Kris
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Re: Critique Needed - Dont Hold Back!!

Post by spr3wr »

(pic 1) Interesting setup with the feet. We are all taught ball side foot goes back to open up the hips.

(pic 3) In a 5 step approach the ball should drop/fall into the swing as the ball side foot (toes) touches on the 2nd step.

(pic 4) The ball doesn't drop/fall until the heel of the 3rd step touches. Your almost a full step late. This will create balance and consistency problems. The swing is starting to move outside of the body and outside of the head. We must try to keep the head over the ball at all times.

(pic 5) The body and head is moving left but the ball is not following the body or the head. Remember try to keep the ball inline with the head.

(pic 6) Because of the late pushaway the ball is still at the highest point as your left foot is starting to slide. Perfect timing is when the ball drops from the top of the backswing as you finish the 4th step.

(pic 8) Late timing is now starting to show it's ugly side. The ball maybe at the arrows and your standing up . How do you know if your hitting your mark if your head is moving? Answer - you don't! If your head is moving up and left you have to guess where the ball is at the arrows.

http://s943.photobucket.com/user/spr3wr ... w.png.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Better timing
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Better balance
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The release will take care of it's self when you get better timing.
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Re: Critique Needed - Dont Hold Back!!

Post by Nsane »

Please follow the guidelines that are given by Jim Merrell to post Videos for analyzing in this forum.
You will find it here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1163

NO SLOW MOTION VIDEOS
Image
Ducati what else?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nice people press +
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Re: Critique Needed - Dont Hold Back!!

Post by kajmk »

Hi folks, the following is the first sentence in the video capture coaching article on the wiki.

''Please post videos in real time so the coaches can see your true tempo and cadence.
Posting video in slow motion can also be useful but please only do it in addition to the real time video."

The next sentence countermands the first one.

Someone without analytical software might benefit by viewing the slow motion video.
Slow motion does not show pacing in real time, but all things are still relative.

Jim does not want videos that are exclusively slow motion.

Others may actually benefit by viewing slow motion. Slow motion preceded computer software and has been an integral part of motion analysis in the past.

I would offer that Real Time videos are mandatory and slow motion are optional and for the benefit of others.
Let's say that someone without analytical software wants to attempt analysis, the slow motion video could be helpful.

Am I wrong?

:)
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Re: Critique Needed - Dont Hold Back!!

Post by KrisW77 »

So sorry, should of made it clearer that I wasn't after full Analysis.
Was only after peoples opinions of what these high frame rate videos might show.
(They are completely undoctored from the recorded speed - I haven't slowed them down with software)

Fully aware that the other section wants No Slow Motion, side shots etc for Jim to analyse.
I didn't think it applied to the community coaching too!
Would there also be whinging if I had recorded it at normal speed on a low quality old mobile phone!!
As it will probably be several months before I get an opportunity to take any more film, I was hoping for some constructive feedback beforehand.

I also posted it as Slow Mo for the benefit of anyone without analytical software, as without it (ie like someone standing behind me) the release is just a blur
Just to make sure, I assume video for Analysis is 60fps, or is it needed in 30fps!

Kris
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Re: Critique Needed - Dont Hold Back!!

Post by kajmk »

Hi Kris.
Being a child of the previous century, I appreciate and recognize the merits of slow motion.
The slow motion is a perfect compliment to my slow wittedness.

No apologies are necessary for well intended deeds.

What can I say, I'm a tome and slow-mo guy from the distant past.

Cheers everyone!
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
KrisW77
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Re: Critique Needed - Dont Hold Back!!

Post by KrisW77 »

Thanks for the feedback, spr3wr
I agree with your observations, but struggle with your last statement
spr3wr wrote: The release will take care of it's self when you get better timing.
I just cant get my head around how addressing all my poor approach habits will affect the release.
Especially, as despite all my flaws I am relatively consistent.

Do you have any comments on the release? I cant decide whether it is poor or just extreme, particularly the hand position coming into the release.
I need to understand, as when I go and start with the No Step drill (like the Slowinski video you linked), I’ll need to practice with my hand in the desired position.

At the moment, my fingers point to 9 o’clock and my hand is on the right hand side of the ball.
Should I be getting my fingers round to say 7.30?
Or is it more critical to stay behind the ball more?
Or is there nothing significantly wrong, and I just need to alter my layouts?

I was already thinking that I’d rebuild my game from the release backwards. So progress from a No Step to a 1 Step, then 3 Step and then full approach.

Thanks again, your comments have been most useful.

Kris

I’ve also made some comments on your observations as to why I think I do some of these flaws.
spr3wr wrote: (pic 1) Interesting setup with the feet. We are all taught ball side foot goes back to open up the hips.
In a 5 step approach, doesn’t the non-ball foot start behind the ball foot?
I open my hips and open my shoulders at set-up by rotating my spine, but keep the ball arm pointing down the lane. Does this make a difference?
My non-ball foot will move back and forwards depending on the tempo of my footwork that day – but it is typical in this video
spr3wr wrote: (pic 3) In a 5 step approach the ball should drop/fall into the swing as the ball side foot (toes) touches on the 2nd step.
(pic 4) The ball doesn't drop/fall until the heel of the 3rd step touches. Your almost a full step late. This will create balance and consistency problems.
(pic 6) Because of the late pushaway the ball is still at the highest point as your left foot is starting to slide. Perfect timing is when the ball drops from the top of the backswing as you finish the 4th step.
I had thought perfect timing was with release at the end of the slide?
In this video, I reckon that the ball is about a foot or so behind at the end of the slide, so it has caught up from being a full step late. And it doesn’t feel like that it is being muscled in order to catch up.
spr3wr wrote: (pic 4) ...The swing is starting to move outside of the body and outside of the head. We must try to keep the head over the ball at all times.
(pic 5) The body and head is moving left but the ball is not following the body or the head. Remember try to keep the ball inline with the head.
I assume the best thing to correct is the body & head moving left rather than getting the ball to follow.
To me it looks like the ball is swinging in the same plane until the downswing (when it all just looks ugly)

For when I get around to some more video
I assume I need to set the video camera up more in line with my arm swing though to see this better?
Similarly, do I need to get the camera lower for a close up of the release?

spr3wr wrote: (pic 8) … How do you know if your hitting your mark if your head is moving? Answer - you don't!
Yep – I don’t know, I guess!
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Re: Critique Needed - Dont Hold Back!!

Post by spr3wr »

I agree with your observations, but struggle with your last statement

I just cant get my head around how addressing all my poor approach habits will affect the release.
Especially, as despite all my flaws I am relatively consistent.
Imagine being in perfect timing at the release point where you could maintain your balance and watch the ball roll over your intended target. You could repeat the release better and make better judgment on when to move because your watching the ball roll down the lane. That along would makes you a better bowler.



Do you have any comments on the release? I cant decide whether it is poor or just extreme, particularly the hand position coming into the release.
I need to understand, as when I go and start with the No Step drill (like the Slowinski video you linked), I’ll need to practice with my hand in the desired position.
The Slowinski video is to help with balance . You need to feel what proper balance feels like.
At the moment, my fingers point to 9 o’clock and my hand is on the right hand side of the ball.
Should I be getting my fingers round to say 7.30?
Or is it more critical to stay behind the ball more?
Or is there nothing significantly wrong, and I just need to alter my layouts?
The release is good just need to fix the follow through. Your elbow should be inside of the shoulder after the ball is release. Now you have a chicken wing elbow . I do believe if you fix your balance 1st the release will improve. But..... I know everyone wants a pro release so with that in mind. After the thumb comes out of the ball turn the palm upward.

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I was already thinking that I’d rebuild my game from the release backwards. So progress from a No Step to a 1 Step, then 3 Step and then full approach.
I would get the timing better 1st but it's your game.
In a 5 step approach, doesn’t the non-ball foot start behind the ball foot?
no
I open my hips and open my shoulders at set-up by rotating my spine, but keep the ball arm pointing down the lane. Does this make a difference?
My non-ball foot will move back and forwards depending on the tempo of my footwork that day – but it is typical in this video
As long as you keep your hips and shoulder open it doesn't matter it's just easier.
spr3wr wrote: (pic 3) In a 5 step approach the ball should drop/fall into the swing as the ball side foot (toes) touches on the 2nd step.
(pic 4) The ball doesn't drop/fall until the heel of the 3rd step touches. Your almost a full step late. This will create balance and consistency problems.
(pic 6) Because of the late pushaway the ball is still at the highest point as your left foot is starting to slide. Perfect timing is when the ball drops from the top of the backswing as you finish the 4th step.

I had thought perfect timing was with release at the end of the slide?
In this video, I reckon that the ball is about a foot or so behind at the end of the slide, so it has caught up from being a full step late. And it doesn’t feel like that it is being muscled in order to catch up.
Timing should be keep during the entire approach! Their is many,many,many ways to look at timing. What kind of balance you have at the release point shows what kind of timing you have.
I assume the best thing to correct is the body & head moving left rather than getting the ball to follow.
To me it looks like the ball is swinging in the same plane until the downswing (when it all just looks ugly)
Wouldn't it be easier to place the pushaway over the right foot?
For when I get around to some more video
I assume I need to set the video camera up more in line with my arm swing though to see this better?
Similarly, do I need to get the camera lower for a close up of the release?
Yes and yes and a side view please.
spr3wr wrote: (pic 8) … How do you know if your hitting your mark if your head is moving? Answer - you don't!
Yep – I don’t know, I guess![/quote]
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KrisW77
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Re: Critique Needed - Dont Hold Back!!

Post by KrisW77 »

Thanks for your comments.
They have been most useful, especially
spr3wr wrote:The release is good...
I know everyone wants a pro release...
My release is all mine. It's only in the last few months that I've started to look at the stuff now available online.
Before that, it would of been the rather limited coverage that was available over here in the early 90s.
Now I am not so concerned about release, so I'll work on the other bits.
And find more video of Mike Fagan. Is there anyone else similar?
In a 5 step approach, doesn’t the non-ball foot start behind the ball foot?
no
Am I out dated in my thinking then that for a 5 step right hander the footwork is
1 Left (Therefore Non-ball foot starts behind ball foot)
2 Right
3 Left
4 Right
5 Left / Slide

Is having the non-ball foot in front (or alongside?) to help open the hips then?

Kris
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Re: Critique Needed - Dont Hold Back!!

Post by spr3wr »

Now I am not so concerned about release, so I'll work on the other bits.
And find more video of Mike Fagan. Is there anyone else similar?
Most all pros have the same style release.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Am I out dated in my thinking then that for a 5 step right hander the footwork is
1 Left (Therefore Non-ball foot starts behind ball foot)
2 Right
3 Left
4 Right
5 Left / Slide

Is having the non-ball foot in front (or alongside?) to help open the hips then?

Yes ,Look at the footwork.
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... _Technique" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Critique Needed - Dont Hold Back!!

Post by kajmk »

I just cant get my head around how addressing all my poor approach habits will affect the release.
Kris, I'll start off with a quote by Mark Baker, but the essence of his words were taught to me by other coaches in years past, at least two of those coaches taught many PBA and LPBA bowlers for decades.
Mark likened the release to being like the center piece of a jigsaw puzzle, it's not the best starting point.

One aspect of the approach, footwork - i.e. the pace of the steps, the spacing of the steps, the nature of steps, the direction of steps, all contribute to the quality of momentum, power, ball speed, leverage, accuracy, repeatability, ERROR FORGIVENESS (i.e. what happens when your timing or direction are off a sconce).
Good footwork makes a good swing easier to accomplish. The footwork and the swing are married so to speak.
Five Step.JPG
Cross over steps - shoes.JPG
These words are from Jim Merrell and Mo Pinel from various posts on the forum
Footwork
Slow----Slow-quick-quick-slide

Step, balance beam, step, balance beam, crossover in the slide! The result is increased leverage.

Drive the hips forward and down, bringing your NON-SLIDE knee into your slide leg calf.


http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... ntinuation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



----------------------------

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6167&hilit=cadence" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Focus on the cadence of your footwork.

Four step cadence: slow, quick, quick, slide.
Five step cadence: slow, slow, quick, quick, slide

The term quick needs to be accompanied by short. Quick and long don't work.
Mark Baker has a few Quick tips on Youtube (look for Mark Baker Ebonite for example)
There's a word or two there that explain a few ways the approach affects the release.

If you can practice with on lane targets, you'll prep yourself for times when lane conditions get tougher. Of course you need permission from the center.
Example set two pieces of tape at the splice area, object is to roll between them, set up a set down the lane - in essence connecting the dots.

Here's a challenging one -

[youtube][/youtube]

Richard Shockley references some data (600 - 700 bowlers at Kegel Training) regarding the accuracy and speed control of bowlers as part of this brief video he includes some references to pro bowlers.

[youtube][/youtube]

I think it would be worth your while to submit a rear and side view video set for Jim Merrell to analyze,
using these guidelines
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... e_Coaching" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I hope you found some of the above helpful.

Every coach renders the caveat that there are always exceptions. They do however study the commonalities of elite bowlers.

Take care.
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Re: Critique Needed - Dont Hold Back!!

Post by 2y2 »

Hello KrisW77,

Most high level coaches state that release is the sum of all you do before. Joe Slowinski calls it "The Kinetic Chain", Mark Baker states that he rarely has to work on the release because it is something that just happens when everything's okay. In fact, Baker and many others says that it is very curious how so many bowlers seeking his advice are concerned about generating more power with only their release and they focus all their mistakes solely on it. He states that when working on everything that's "wrong" they go with a stronger and much more powerful release as a consequence of the correction.

By looking how you play I can tell, man you're absolutely late timing and that deffinitely impacts your release.

Energy transfer should be efficient and effortless and in your case it is not. All your form after your pushaway is controlled and muscular, not natural at all. Your release has no problem at all, it is beautiful and powerful but it is impossible for you to post the shot that way. You know, the ball and the pins are talking to you but you cannot listen to them if you're not firm at the foul line, you fall from your shot and that's a timing issue.

Joe Slowinski measures timing this way, when your left foot reaches your right one, the ball should be at its highest point, that's not your case. Mark Baker measures timing at the point when your heel touches the ground in your slide, at this point your bowling arm should be horizontal, guess what, not your case eather. You're so late at this point you have to accelerate the ball downwards, you try so hard and make so much effort to overcome timing that you lose balance at the foul line, this affects leverage at the release and your energy transfer is achieved only by muscle, not gravity.

The origin of your timing issue is that being your size, you move the ball until your 3rd step (Just like Chris Barnes, but a little later), that's too late, if you try moving the ball as soon as you complete your first step (Just like Tommy Jones), I bet you'll be balanced at the foul line.

Being a power player as you are, the way you set your body at stance is not efficient, Norm Duke, recomends that feet position when youre throwing right to left because it closes your heaps, and I bet that doesn't happen with you often. If you move your right foot bacwards and open it about 30 degrees your heap will be open, your shoulder will follow and you'll be a lot more aligned with your intended line, causing your body to be more efficient using a lot less muscle to execute your shot.

I hope I wasn't annoying with my comments, that's what I see.
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Re: Critique Needed - Dont Hold Back!!

Post by 2y2 »

spr3wr,

The foul line drill is not intended for balance purposes, it is a release exercise, it helps with ballance though.
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