ISO Info on switch from two fingered Full Roller to thumb

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Starion
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ISO Info on switch from two fingered Full Roller to thumb

Post by Starion » September 8th, 2019, 8:46 am

New member glad to be here! (hope this is the right subforum for this post - I'll move this if not)

My Background / Info:
- Right Handed - two fingered Full Roller tweener (just assessed by pro shop owner - took 3 rolls & oil line to know I was a "full roller"). NOT a two-hander however (as most thumbless info seems to be)
- 38 y/o 175lb, 5'11
- 15-16 mph (from screen, not calc). I can slow or speed up too.
- start 5-15 boards left (adjust based on oil level), throw 5 right (can adjust line also as needed)
~170 ave (200s every other session, highs in 250s).
- self taught rec; no leagues or coaching ...YET
Just bought 1st custom ball (Resurgence) in 9/19. Getting drilled now.

For the last 15 years, I've only been a recreational house bowler with my OLD ebay special; a 13lb used urethane Gyro pancake. I finally did some asking around & research to determine that a reactive resin ball is what I need to stop fighting early & often curve of the urethane - esp on DRY used up lanes. It also doesn't react well if too oily, so I have a straighter line adjustment for those conditions.

I'm in search of more info specific to my newfound Full Roller style
I've read up on all the "Full Roller" threads back to early 2000s here & other sites, yet much of it seems like that style is WAY outdated, slow, straight (esp the limited YT vids on "Full Roller"). NOT how I roll. :?
- My revs are decent but not as super high as pros I see. (I expect much stronger reaction with new ball however)
- I also would LOVE that smooth as glass release, although I don't loft & bounce it roughly by any means. Doesn't seem realistic to expect that without thumb stability??
- Hopefully a drill pattern & finger holes that fit better help a ton with this.


As such, I'm very curious to learn about a more traditional release using the thumb as I know I want more stability for a consistent release.


I'm open to learning thumb grip and have been researching this a ton. No luck trying it on demo balls so far as they didn't seem to fit right (possible I didn't know what I was doing during the free-for-all). Rubber plugs rubbed hard on my skin & not a smooth release at all. (I prob. needed finger tape?). I know I shouldn't have to pinch or hold the ball hard, but found that happening. Tried a bunch of 1 and no-step drill releases even with limited results. Will prob. have to just get a diff. new ball at some point with a solid 3 fingered grip & practice a ton.


Anyhow, lots of variables here to factor in so, for now I'm really looking FW to just rolling with my new 14lb Resurgence for now to improve my current approach, but if there's info on making the transition to a thumb release I'm very interested also! (for my next ball as drill pattern will be hugely diff than my Full Roller)

I'm happy to post updates & thank in advance for any help & relevant links.

- Matt

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Re: ISO Info on switch from two fingered Full Roller to thum

Post by Starion » September 16th, 2019, 6:34 am

I admit I threw a lot out there, but would appreciate a reply. Something?

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Re: ISO Info on switch from two fingered Full Roller to thum

Post by 44boyd » September 16th, 2019, 1:19 pm

Post a video of each style
Stacy

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Re: ISO Info on switch from two fingered Full Roller to thum

Post by kajmk » September 16th, 2019, 3:35 pm

44boyd wrote:Post a video of each style
Some tips on video from the forum wiki
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... e_Coaching" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regarding the video. This is just an opinion, add some metrics when you submit videos.
Stance position and how ascertained.
Finishing position.
Near target, for example, the dots, the arrows.
Intermediate target if any.
Breakpoint target.

Good habit, always hold your finishing position (Post the shot) until your ball hits the pit and note where it did.
Last edited by kajmk on September 16th, 2019, 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

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Re: ISO Info on switch from two fingered Full Roller to thum

Post by boomer » September 16th, 2019, 3:55 pm

Here's my input

First - it's not going to be a quick adjustment. You've been doing something for 15 years that has different muscle memory from what the other style uses.

From my observations of people rolling no-thumb vs thumb, the no-thumb motion is nearer to "pouring out" the ball with very little lift of fingers. This is simply because with no thumb, you are using your cupped wrist and hand to hold the ball.

To move to a thumb motion will take time - you're not going to get it right away. Personally, I think the added control is worth it, but you'll need to "disassemble" yourself and get rid of specific habits - like bending your elbow and extreme cupping of your wrist so you can stay directly under the ball. The elbow and extreme cupping are liabilities.

Second - I think it will be worth it. Recreational bowling with a 13# ball on party lanes is fine - but if you want to bowl in a league or tournament, you will need (NEED) consistency to succeed (not so much with a typical league, but it will still benefit) and you will get more of that (potentially) with a thumb.


My recommendation is to get a proper size ball (13# is even lighter than my 5'2" petite wife uses. . . and WAY lighter than my 5'9" 86yo F-in-law uses. . . ) drilled fingertip and thumb for you. It does NOT have to be aggressive or anything - you need DELIVERY first.

Next thing - get a stainless steel mug or something. You want a little weight but not a ton. just using your #2 and #3 fingertips, swing that back and forth. You want the mug (or kettle bell or whatever) to swing naturally on your fingerTIPS. You've been in the habit of palming the ball - time to get away from that. This you can do in your home, wherever. I do it walking to fill up my mug (it's messy to do when my mug is full. . . LOL) - the idea is that the MUG SWINGS YOU. If it flops at all, you're pulling it.

Just. . . let. . . it. . . rest. . . on your fingertips and swing it. :) Naturally.

Then watch Norm Duke's or Chris Barnes' video on the 4 step approach. Watching almost EVERY no-thumb bowler (and there's an entire team on my league) - their approaches are almost always RUSHED. It looks like they feel like the ball is going to fall out of their hands, so they FLY up to the line. You won't need to do that anymore. Get into a natural mode where The Ball Swings You.

And if you need to squeeze (you really shouldn't) try to squeeze with the BASE of your thumb, NOT the tip. This will allow your thumb to release properly when the ball wants to.


And VIDEO! :)

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Re: ISO Info on switch from two fingered Full Roller to thum

Post by Starion » September 16th, 2019, 5:21 pm

Thanks Boomer!!

Awesome response! :) Why this antiquated phpBB doesn't allow a second + vote of reputation "so soon after previous" (ummm 20+ mins??) is beyond me! :? (apparently "CTRL + U" doesn't = underline text but - loads code :? ) But I digress...

Great input on the differences & I agree....we're both very limited until I can post some video. Til then...
-----------------------

I don't believe I rush as much as the typical 2 fingered palmer but it's entirely possible. I've seen this in other recc palmers.

For reference (no brag), I'm fairly athletic and take to coaching well when feedback and drills are specific (you just gave both!) :D . I see what you mean with the contact of the mug handle and resulting momentum vs. pulling/flicking & short swinging it.

The arm needs to be a pendulum through elbow AND wrist. My "palm/cup" grip now, by necessity has movement in both, esp at wrist in release. Very diff indeed! Can't palm/cup with a straight wrist. Elbow to some extent doable, but not wrist.

Current Struggle: I really do try to keep my arm from bending, but find the "choke up" release errors when they happen is due to elbow bend, seemingly from unstable grip. I need to fully extend arm consistently through release to avoid this choke up & early release.

Straight armed with thumb would be totally diff; allowing more arm length to lay it down smoother, and with less bending down to surface. I don't loft, but do envy a smooth-as-glass release ;)

*Correct if I'm wrong at any point, any time* Always. Please.
------------------------
I'll get some work in with the new ball, and shoot some vid after return from a trip this week.
Thanks again

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Re: ISO Info on switch from two fingered Full Roller to thum

Post by 44boyd » September 16th, 2019, 9:15 pm

Posting question here, “How do you want to see the ball move”? It is very hard to replicate the movement created by adding thumb. If you’re wanting to hook the whole lane, I’d suggest a partial thumb in so it gives you some control back. Until I see video of what you do with thumb in, I wouldn’t even worry about if you’re full Roller or not. It all depends on what you’re wanting to see and go from there.
Stacy

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Re: ISO Info on switch from two fingered Full Roller to thum

Post by Starion » September 17th, 2019, 12:49 am

44boyd wrote: “How do you want to see the ball move”? It is very hard to replicate the movement created by adding thumb. If you’re wanting to hook the whole lane, I’d suggest a partial thumb in so it gives you some control back.
TBH I'd like it to move similar to where I'm at, but with a more steady and consistent release. Also with a heavier ball (just got a 14#). I'm already pretty consistent however...just every once in a while I choke up due to that. I'd like a bit more reaction on the back end, but my experience to date is 95% with that old crappy pancake Gyro urethane...which as you mentioned, hooks early and constantly down the lane. Not my goal, esp if I hit dry lane conditions!

I agree on the partial thumb....maybe? I'm willing to get a donation ball just to play around with drill fit. Eventually. I appreciate the input and discussion on the transition for now however.

I look FW to getting some vid & sharing.


Thanks
Last edited by Starion on November 15th, 2019, 5:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ISO Info on switch from two fingered Full Roller to thum

Post by boomer » September 17th, 2019, 4:41 pm

well, we all choke now and again. Right now MY problem is my second game. My knee is so bad (hopefully surgery in December to replace it) that I question whether it is transition, time to make big adjustment/ball change, or whether I just screwed it up - then figure it out and third game is good. Last night 203, 163, 235. First and third were clean. Second. . . not-so-much! LOL

Good to hear that you're athletic. There are always exceptions - there is a no-thumb bowler showing up on PBA finals. . . you CAN do it.

Which brings up - why? :) Bowling is to be enjoyed - there will be a certain amount of frustration, so if you don't want frustration, stick with no-thumb. But if you enjoy progress and playing around with stuff, go for it!

But I do say that there is NO one way to do most things. I brew beer - there IS NO ONE RIGHT WAY to brew beer . . . and there is no one right way to bowl. My wife bowls backup - which is FINE (she is a spare-MONSTER and LOVES her 7-pins, loves them) while I bowl conventional. It's all good! :)

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Re: ISO Info on switch from two fingered Full Roller to thum

Post by Starion » September 18th, 2019, 6:54 am

Nice! I love me some nicely brewed beer! Stouts, Porters, Brown Ales esp. IPAs are cool, but overplayed IMO.

UPDATE on first session with new ball:

**NOTE** This was the FIRST TIME EVER that I've had a ball with finger holes that actually FIT my skinny digits.

ALL previous experience was with bigger finger holes where I'd basically hook by pulling my bent last 1" of bent finger against the edge of the hole with a lot of lateral force at release.

CURRENT FIT & RELEASE: I tried this with new ball, but of course with much smaller holes I had to barely get em half in the hole at say a 45 deg angle and scrape em in, hold pat, then scrape em out at release to rip the revs. Not very comfortable or consistent as with bigger holes before...although I certainly can get a lot of revs that way. I gave it about 15 frames & decided this won't be reasonable moving FW.

USING FINGER HOLES CORRECTLY: Was very strange but I gave it a go while inserting the full first "distal phalanx" (tip to first joint). This requires a full 90 deg bend which wasn't comfortable at first and quite diff than what I'm used to. Even heard that common "pop" sound release a few times (similar to thumb in cheek). Most importantly I WAS able to get it to release smoothly. There were also times it dropped out way early too though. I really do feel a thumb grip would prevent this. TBD.

With practice it seems I'm MUCH closer to laying it down smoothly on the lane with fingers inserted. I am however, losing a good bit of revs without that previous flick. Guessing 30-40% less revs subjectively based on feel, visual and resulting ball reaction vs previous grip. I'm guessing this different release also means that the Full Roller drill is no longer valid, but I'll have to work with my PSO to determine this.

-------------
Dumb question perhaps:
Not sure if it's commonplace to insert the first TWO finger phalanxes into the ball?? This might be a problem for me as my ring finger was broken just below 2nd joint and lost some flexibility/strength. Overall finger is okay, just not the same double-jointed strength of the others. Regardless I don't feel tons of lateral pressure against the finger joints is how it's supposed to be done anyhow right?


And yes, (if you can't tell) I'm very analytical and strangely interested in this challenge of redesigning my release.

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Re: ISO Info on switch from two fingered Full Roller to thum

Post by kajmk » September 18th, 2019, 6:47 pm

Starion, be sure to check out the forum wiki if you have not already done so.
Check all the sections, walk the isles so to speak.

Since you have recently added the thumb as a variable, check this article on the wiki
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... p_Pressure" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good info from Coach Hoppe

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

You're young and athletic. Your height and weight indicate good physical shape.
Being a "former" no thumber, you already have appreciation for the importance of the legs in bowling. USBC Has some YouTube videos dealing in bowling fitness, I recommend you familiarize yourself with them. Warm-up and cool down routines are very important
Coach Bohannon is the USBC strength and conditioning coach

Hopefully, you'll never get injured. One area, often overlooked and under conditioned are the rotator cuff muscles (4). Injuries can occur over time or via trauma. Anatomy also plays a part insofar as tendencies for injury.
There are videos on YouTube regarding stretches and strengthening exercises.
I'd recommend you familiarize yourself with that area. Askdrjo is a good source of information, Bob and Brad as well. Athleanx is a good one too, but can be intense for some.
Review multiple sources and use your good judgement.


I have tears in two of the muscles, never felt any trauma (1 is a High grade tear), which makes me think it was analogous to fraying a rope over time. Probably nudged along by this old body doing too much too late (terrible too's :o )

Again, the forum wiki has much to offer, including references to external resources.

Noting is as good as in person 1:1 with a qualified instructor.
We are all different.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so

There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

Empathize

John

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Re: ISO Info on switch from two fingered Full Roller to thum

Post by Starion » November 9th, 2019, 8:49 am

kajmk wrote:Starion, be sure to check out the forum wiki if you have not already done so.
Check all the sections, walk the isles so to speak.

Since you have recently added the thumb as a variable, check this article on the wiki
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... p_Pressure" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good info from Coach Hoppe

You're young and athletic. Your height and weight indicate good physical shape.
Being a "former" no thumber, you already have appreciation for the importance of the legs in bowling. USBC Has some YouTube videos dealing in bowling fitness, I recommend you familiarize yourself with them. Warm-up and cool down routines are very important
Coach Bohannon is the USBC strength and conditioning coach

Hopefully, you'll never get injured. One area, often overlooked and under conditioned are the rotator cuff muscles (4). Injuries can occur over time or via trauma. Anatomy also plays a part insofar as tendencies for injury.
.....
Again, the forum wiki has much to offer, including references to external resources.

Noting is as good as in person 1:1 with a qualified instructor.
We are all different.
^ Stellar post! Thanks. *disclaimer* Sorry for being all over the place on this post/thread - I'm excited about upping my game & equipment :) As always, if I say something off PLEASE correct me...


Yes, I've been doing a lot of reading on here, the Wiki, and watching a TON of YT vids including those you posted (cast to TV during meals).
IMO it's selfish for a relative newb to ask before doing one's own homework. Although specified direction for specified questions certainly saves time if a forum/Wiki's search function is limited.

Yes, I had a slap tear in the rotator cuff myself 5 years ago (on my R throwing shoulder) from diving into a base. Spent a year out of the gym resting, then PT trying to avoid surgery but it was trashed by the time he got in there. 7 tie-downs and a good year of rehab later I ended up back in the gym back to full strength, so I'm more aware of stretching & warm-up/cool down than most. I'm still very glad you mentioned, since most readers & bowlers (ANY athletic venture) could do this more & better!!

RE: a Certified Coach....also YES!!!
Unfort there isn't one near me in SWFL. My local guy seems okay but had little to answer when I asked about how he analyzes a new bowler for ball fit. Just wants to do a "standard drill" and see what happens. I'm not one for trial and error while tearing up a new ball, much less when he's not willing to figure out my stats: revs, axis tilt, speed, PIP, etc. I'm trying to learn the basics on this myself. I feel more now that the thumb won't drastically affect my release so long as it's fit properly and in the right spot. The worst thing I could do is screw up my game trying to adjust to a bad ball fit.


CURRENTLY:

I'm seeking a Cert. Coach & might have to drive to Miami to get a true & thorough measure & game plan for ball drilling, but have a gal pal out there, so there's extra reason for the miles ;)

I'm about 25 games into my Columbia 300 Resurgence, still on just the two fingers in a standard FULL ROLLER layout. Despite the "upside down" drill pattern from what I'm told, I'm getting pretty good response with this ball across various conditions. Averaging 170s with variability due to my need to get a spare ball. But working on my flat yo-yo straighter release even with same ball is improving quickly vs. the typical self-taught "use your hook with adjustments" for spares. :idea:

LAST SESSION
I ran into some late night bad oil carry conditions and couldn't get the Resurgence to hook, but found a slightly elevated loft release helped me keep it more centered without losing rotation early*. Averaged 178 in 4 games with that change + better spares than before (still missed a few easy ones). I will add that probably 1/2 the strikes were "lucky" to me, as not totally flush or coming in high if not left pocket on a few. Did I say this ball really carries well!!
* :idea: I thought of this after watching Chris Prather so confidently tell Brad & Kyle, (paraphrasing) "I just got done on this lane and think I figured it out."... "If I don't miss, I figure I can probably shoot 300".

I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw how he did it!! --> VID HERE: https://youtu.be/wqVqsdVxpCQ?t=163 I didn't loft hardly at all compared to his craziness, but not my normal lowered smoother release. I dunno - was pretty excited to figure out a fix and crush some flush pockets where I was hopeless otherwise.


That said, I know a stronger ball is needed for these conditions and I found some great reviews for Columbia's "BALLER" which comes with a free White Dot plastic spare ball through Dec. '19!! Pretty darn perfect for my needs. I won't drill either til' I'm coached up with a plan though.


Lastly, in addition to this site's treasure of info and YouTube (fan of Brad & Kyle, and JR Raymond's vids, Mo Panel's science of ball motion, etc.),
+ I got a copy of this old bowling Bible...
PAR BOWLING by Thomas C. Kouros.

Image

^ All I can say is WOW!!! I found answers to many questions I already had in mind and written notes + more I didn't even know about. I've gone from "pin bowling" to using arrows, even line bowling now and already seeing results while enjoying fine tuning my starting position, approach, release, aiming, spare ball, etc. (I should copy this book review as a new post!) Well worth the $45 for a 1976 gem. Together with this place & specific vid searches, these resources are just awesome for an analytic nut like me.

Recent adjustment "win"
Focus on my left arm position during approach and at release was a big help in consistency of release and is fixing a lot of my prior "choking up" and throwing high/left. Learning several cool little adjustments too, which is exciting.

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