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 Post subject: Why 7 and 10 pin ?!?!
 Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:29 am Post Number: #1 Post
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Dear All

Yesterday I was practicing and the following accord:

Last frame I through the ball on board 17 goes for the 10 pin break point between 2 to 8 board full pocket and leaves 7 & 10 the ball hit the pit at the left side of pin 5 when the ball hit the pocket it exploded but still pin 7 & 10 remained

2 more times it did exactly the same thing so total of 3 times 2 on one lane and 1 on the next lane I first thought that it might be because of the miss placement of the pin but after 3 times and also on the next lane I though that this could not be the reason.

Therefore I brought the problem here to see if I could find the reason for it and it would be highly appreciated if you all would pitch in and let me know what you think.

Thank you all for your kind attention
Best regards
H.A.Kiani


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 Post subject: Re: Why 7 and 10 pin ?!?!
 Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:15 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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your ball is probably hooking too late. Add surface or use a ball that hooks earlier.

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 Post subject: Re: Why 7 and 10 pin ?!?!
 Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:13 am Post Number: #3 Post
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snick wrote:
your ball is probably hooking too late. Add surface or use a ball that hooks earlier.


Dear Snick

I thank you for your reply, yes you are right because this happened in mid game at the beginning and at the end of the game I did not have this problem.

Also what do you mean by adding surface is it more ground coverage with the ball (going more to my left and shooting the ball for the 10 pin? I am right handed)

best regards
H.A.Kiani


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 Post subject: Re: Why 7 and 10 pin ?!?!
 Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:22 am Post Number: #4 Post
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More surface means that you have to sand your ball to a lower grit so it has more friction and can read sooner.

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 Post subject: Re: Why 7 and 10 pin ?!?!
 Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:28 am Post Number: #5 Post
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2y2 wrote:
More surface means that you have to sand your ball to a lower grit so it has more friction and can read sooner.


Dear 2Y2

Thank you for the information, I was thinking more about the kind of game that I was playing and I was not thinking about the ball, beside I really did not know what "More surface" meant and thank you for letting me know.

regards
H.A.Kiani


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 Post subject: Re: Why 7 and 10 pin ?!?!
 Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:11 am Post Number: #6 Post
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While this article does not talk exactly about the 7-10 split, I think it is important to read it to understand better how and why some pins won't fall even when you hit the pocket:
http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/slowinskifeb10.pdf

I hope you find it useful.

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 Post subject: Re: Why 7 and 10 pin ?!?!
 Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:23 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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2y2 wrote:
While this article does not talk exactly about the 7-10 split, I think it is important to read it to understand better how and why some pins won't fall even when you hit the pocket:
http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/slowinskifeb10.pdf

I hope you find it useful.


Thank you for the info it does give you a perspective on why some pins do not fall and Slowinski always has a systematical approach

best regards
HAKiani


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 Post subject: Re: Why 7 and 10 pin ?!?!
 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:25 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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I like that article!


I had two 7-10 pin pocket leaves last night just messing around (niece and nephews in town, let's go bowling) - delivery wasn't bad and the line wasn't bad - maybe I just messed up those two deliveries? Let me go back through my brain to see?

In both cases I turned my hand and ended with the back of my hand up rather than my thumb and fingers. Whenever I do this, my ball ends up "dead" at the pocket and doesn't drive through very well. It may reach the pocket, but lacks any punch.

So, instead of driving through the 1-3 pocket, the 1 seems to nick the 2 and fall into the left gutter. The 2 now drives straighter back and knocks the 4 AWAY from the 7. The ball gets deflected more to the right and drives the 3 straight back and nicks the 6 which just falls flat into the right gutter. Then the ball hits the 5 into the 8 and takes out the 9 and voila, left with the 7-10 split.

If the ball had had more drive, might have left the 7 pin (would not have deflected so much, thus kicked the 3 to the right instead of straight back) . . .

But anyway - that's what I saw on the vid.


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 Post subject: Re: Why 7 and 10 pin ?!?!
 Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:05 am Post Number: #9 Post
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boomer wrote:
I like that article!


I had two 7-10 pin pocket leaves last night just messing around (niece and nephews in town, let's go bowling) - delivery wasn't bad and the line wasn't bad - maybe I just messed up those two deliveries? Let me go back through my brain to see?

In both cases I turned my hand and ended with the back of my hand up rather than my thumb and fingers. Whenever I do this, my ball ends up "dead" at the pocket and doesn't drive through very well. It may reach the pocket, but lacks any punch.

So, instead of driving through the 1-3 pocket, the 1 seems to nick the 2 and fall into the left gutter. The 2 now drives straighter back and knocks the 4 AWAY from the 7. The ball gets deflected more to the right and drives the 3 straight back and nicks the 6 which just falls flat into the right gutter. Then the ball hits the 5 into the 8 and takes out the 9 and voila, left with the 7-10 split.

If the ball had had more drive, might have left the 7 pin (would not have deflected so much, thus kicked the 3 to the right instead of straight back) . . .

But anyway - that's what I saw on the vid.


Dear Boomer

I hope that you are doing fine and well.
mine was exactly the other way around It was not deflected at all the ball fell in the pit at the left side of Pin 5 between 8th and 9th pin usually with this kind of ball I get the 9th pin and sometimes the 4th pin (depends on the line and the amount of rev I put into the ball) but a strong pocket leaving 7th and 10th pin 3 times was not something I expected.

The point that I did not thought about was the kind of ball and according to the above information apparently more surface on the ball or a ball change would have fixed the issue.
Also I remember that this happened in the mid game where the transition of the Oil is at its maximum.

Thank you for pitching in and looking forward to hear more.

Best regards
HAKiani


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 Post subject: Re: Why 7 and 10 pin ?!?!
 Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:19 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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so - where "in the pocket" did your ball hit? It sounds like it hit way high and drove straight through the 1-5-8/9 - in which case it would be closer to a traditional 7-10 hit. You CAN get a somewhat traditional 7-10 entering at a slight angle. Your ball hits the 1, nicks the 3, drives straight into the 5 then splits the 8-9. This could have the effect of 1 hitting the 2, "cutting" it (using a pool term - there's a lot of parallels) strongly left and it cutting the 4 back and missing the 7. Nicking the 3 would cut it similarly, cutting the 6 straight back.

If you only get it once or every now and again, don't stress over it too much. Honestly, it's more likely a delivery thing that you don't notice. Heck - even the pros get it now and again.

If you get it repeatedly. . . get some video. You can tell a LOT from video.

Also, try to remember your ball's path. Then, jot that down and use a printout of the pins. It can be really illuminating! I have a printout on my "gadget box" (where I keep tape, sandpaper, super-glue, etc.) so I can take a quarter (approximate scale for a ball) and run it through . . .


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 Post subject: Re: Why 7 and 10 pin ?!?!
 Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:28 am Post Number: #11 Post
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boomer wrote:
so - where "in the pocket" did your ball hit? It sounds like it hit way high and drove straight through the 1-5-8/9 - in which case it would be closer to a traditional 7-10 hit. You CAN get a somewhat traditional 7-10 entering at a slight angle. Your ball hits the 1, nicks the 3, drives straight into the 5 then splits the 8-9. This could have the effect of 1 hitting the 2, "cutting" it (using a pool term - there's a lot of parallels) strongly left and it cutting the 4 back and missing the 7. Nicking the 3 would cut it similarly, cutting the 6 straight back.

If you only get it once or every now and again, don't stress over it too much. Honestly, it's more likely a delivery thing that you don't notice. Heck - even the pros get it now and again.

If you get it repeatedly. . . get some video. You can tell a LOT from video.

Also, try to remember your ball's path. Then, jot that down and use a printout of the pins. It can be really illuminating! I have a printout on my "gadget box" (where I keep tape, sandpaper, super-glue, etc.) so I can take a quarter (approximate scale for a ball) and run it through . . .


thank you for the Info

Could you please explain your print out of the Pins? I did not quite get it, and it sounds great, is it some what like the "Fox2" pattern details of how you throw the ball and on which board and ...? or is it just something else.

Best regards
HAKiani


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 Post subject: Re: Why 7 and 10 pin ?!?!
 Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:21 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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quite literally - it's just a printout of the pins that fits the lid of my goodie-box. :) I think I got it by searching for bowling pin diagram and printing out something that looked good and then sticking it on there. :)

I was going to put a lane diagram on there, but to make it scale, it would be pretty useless. The lane is 60' from foul line to the center of the headpin, plus a bit under 40" to the end of the deck, so say 63' . . . and only 3'5" wide. So that's 20:1 (ish) . . . and since my goodie box is like maybe 10" long, that would be . . . half an inch wide? LOL - so I thought to make it "representative" but then. . . meh. so it's just the pins and maybe a touch of lane. . .


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 Post subject: Re: Why 7 and 10 pin ?!?!
 Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:52 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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Quote:
but a strong pocket leaving 7th and 10th pin 3 times was not something I expected.


Strong pocket hits will not usually leave the 7-10.
Remember, the pocket is a path through the pins, not just the 1-3 entry point. It is conceivable to hit the 1-3 perfectly and still not enter the pocket.

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 Post subject: Re: Why 7 and 10 pin ?!?!
 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:46 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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snick wrote:

Strong pocket hits will not usually leave the 7-10.
Remember, the pocket is a path through the pins, not just the 1-3 entry point. It is conceivable to hit the 1-3 perfectly and still not enter the pocket.


"usually" being the operative word.

It's amazing how many crushing hits that I've seen that have left the 7-10 - even on PBA telecasts. When I started bowling, it seemed like you deserved the 7-10s you got. . . LOL. . . but now?

See Belmo's 10th frame shot at the Player's Championship at https://youtu.be/x12gyFrrcD0?list=PLwuU ... LHX&t=4997 - 1:23:00 to find it (if the link doesn't take you right there) - looked like a typical crushing Belmo shot but 7-10 left. Can't get much stronger than that.

Watch it slow and you'll see it's almost exactly like my first 7-10 scenario. The ball hits the 1 high flush, but just a TOUCH on the side, cutting it wide, knocking the 2 BACK instead of diagonal, which cut the 4 LEFT and around the 7 like a ringing 10. The 3 gets driven back, cutting the 6 straight right and into the channel, ringing it around the 10. The ball deflects into the 5, as it should normally, which drives into the 8, again, normal, and the ball deflects into the left side of the 9, again like normal.

The ball path is CORRECT, as far as it goes. 1-3-5-9. It exits the deck right where it should - between the 8-9, carrying the 5 with it into the 8. Picture perfect - as far as it goes. (wry grin)

even where it ENTERS is right there - high on the 1, driving into the 3 - high freakin flush, baby! Pins get crushed and fly everywhere, exactly like a Belmo strike.

But it's something in there . . . something went just a touch awry and left him with the worst possible outcome.


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