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 Post subject: NIghtmare
 Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:16 am Post Number: #1 Post
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I thought I could probably learn everything there is in this thing in a day or two. I spent the past 45 min on the first thing and passed the l101 exam with 93% but I am not sure if I can hold all that info in. To know all this you have to be drilling balls left and right all the time and use it. is it really important to learn all this stuff or can I do without it? the l102 class has like 12 or so different things in it.

I started l102 but I don't think I can learn anything. How can you learn if you don't even know about yourself? I don't know if I am rev dominate, speed dominate or match. I would probably say I can be either depending on what I want to do. I have no idea what my axis tilt is and don't you have to understand your own first? Where can you go to figure out what your tilt is? The same with axis of rotation. Any clues where to get started on this first so some of the other things make since.


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 Post subject: Re: NIghtmare
 Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:59 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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krava wrote:
I thought I could probably learn everything there is in this thing in a day or two. I spent the past 45 min on the first thing and passed the l101 exam with 93% but I am not sure if I can hold all that info in. To know all this you have to be drilling balls left and right all the time and use it. is it really important to learn all this stuff or can I do without it? the l102 class has like 12 or so different things in it.

I started l102 but I don't think I can learn anything. How can you learn if you don't even know about yourself? I don't know if I am rev dominate, speed dominate or match. I would probably say I can be either depending on what I want to do. I have no idea what my axis tilt is and don't you have to understand your own first? Where can you go to figure out what your tilt is? The same with axis of rotation. Any clues where to get started on this first so some of the other things make since.

The wiki:
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... _Reference


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 Post subject: Re: NIghtmare
 Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:44 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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krava,
The post for Items in Order to give you a recommended layout has listed some specific articles in the Wiki to read to help understand the release specs and how to measure them. Video of yourself bowling using the tips listed to help your understanding.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=373

When I first started working up layouts I posted on every request and gladly took the advice, criticisms and support from the more knowledgeable members to reinforce or correct my learning curve.
I treat each request as if it were myself with the given specs.
I realize you are trying to understand your own game. I have found to understand others' game has helped me to understand my own game even better.

The BCU has limited examples for you to learn from.
I would encourage you to attempt to figure out the layout requests in the forum. Post your attempts for discussion. I for one would be more than willing to give you feedback just as others have done for me.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: NIghtmare
 Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:22 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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I went through the same thing, but I'm some what tenacious. I did a lot of research, read, watched videos, read some more. And found some really good articles. Then I came across BC, I too am enrolled in the BCU. Level 2 there is a lot to figure out and even more to try and remember mainly due to all the variables. Being this is more of a hobby pursuit at this time and not working with the dual system on a daily basis makes it tough to remember it all. But there is a wealth of knowledge here and everyone here at this site has been user friendly and I for one can't think them enough for their time and efforts in sharing what they know and their pursuit in maintaining and managing the site.

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Pap 4 7/8 up 1 1/16
AT 13
AR 35
Speed 16.5- 17 @ monitor
RR 225 - 230


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 Post subject: Re: NIghtmare
 Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:29 am Post Number: #5 Post
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I understand but do I need to know all this is what I am asking. I usually go into the proshop and say. I want the ball to go long and then hook back as much as possible or I want a ball that goes down and doesn't jump on the backends. I want a ball that can go through the fried heads and still have some power at the pins down the lane. I mean if I have a good PSO is that all I need or I need to make an understanding of all this? I don't mind doing it, but there is so many things already I got to deal with and take in and everything is a bit much. I am not drilling balls and so forth. For the people that do that They absolutely need to know all this.


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 Post subject: Re: NIghtmare
 Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:43 am Post Number: #6 Post
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krava wrote:
I understand but do I need to know all this is what I am asking. I usually go into the proshop and say. I want the ball to go long and then hook back as much as possible or I want a ball that goes down and doesn't jump on the backends. I want a ball that can go through the fried heads and still have some power at the pins down the lane. I mean if I have a good PSO is that all I need or I need to make an understanding of all this? I don't mind doing it, but there is so many things already I got to deal with and take in and everything is a bit much. I am not drilling balls and so forth. For the people that do that They absolutely need to know all this.



I've mentioned a simular statement in a past post, I've gone as far as purchasing a pro sect, armadillo and recently purchased a spinner that has pretty much already paid for itself. Ive Practiced reversing the layout to determine existing layouts against what I've come up with for my bench mark. Which is 55X25.
I have a couple of balls that will break 5 to 8 boards and then just stop and roll straight prior to reaching the pocket. I adjust and they hit weak leaving 8 and 4 pins and one other that's chases the 5 pin over the 8 spot Leaving solid 9s. I made a surface adjustment on the later that seems to have corrected that.
My goal is purchase the ball of my choice lay them out and take them in to get drilled. It's actually a tad more expensive this way but at least I know what what my expected reaction should be if it fails then my bad.

I feel your pain :)

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W.C
Pap 4 7/8 up 1 1/16
AT 13
AR 35
Speed 16.5- 17 @ monitor
RR 225 - 230


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 Post subject: Re: NIghtmare
 Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:54 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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krava wrote:
I understand but do I need to know all this is what I am asking.I usually go into the proshop and say. I want the ball to go long and then hook back as much as possible or I want a ball that goes down and doesn't jump on the backends. I want a ball that can go through the fried heads and still have some power at the pins down the lane. I mean if I have a good PSO is that all I need or I need to make an understanding of all this? I don't mind doing it, but there is so many things already I got to deal with and take in and everything is a bit much. I am not drilling balls and so forth. For the people that do that They absolutely need to know all this.


If you have a good PSO and trust them, then no you don't have to learn all the in's & out's of laying out a ball. You can do what you just said, go in and tell them I want a ball for this condition and have it do this.

But if you want to make more informed decisions on ball selections and take a more active role in the process and increase your knowledge and understanding of balls and ball motion and how layout's etc. relate to that. Then yes it would help to learn some of this .


Now knowing and determining some basic information like your bowler spec.'s yourself can be very helpful. Especially if your asking for advice on this forum, because we're not there in person to directly help you, it can also save time when you go to the ProShop.

Bowler specific information

  1. What hand you bowl with
  2. Speed (Specify if its on the monitor or at the foul line)
  3. Positive Axis Point (P.A.P.)
  4. Rev Rate
  5. Initial Axis Rotation
  6. Initial Axis Tilt
  7. What surface you want the ball for (wood or synthetic)
  8. What lane condition you are bowling on most of the time

The information on how to determine this bowler specific information is in the wiki:
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=Proshop_Information#Bowler_Measurements_.26_Reference

and it can also be found in numerous posts, Youtube videos and other bowling forums.

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"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."


Last edited by bowl1820 on Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NIghtmare
 Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:21 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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krava wrote:
I understand but do I need to know all this is what I am asking. I usually go into the proshop and say. I want the ball to go long and then hook back as much as possible or I want a ball that goes down and doesn't jump on the backends. I want a ball that can go through the fried heads and still have some power at the pins down the lane. I mean if I have a good PSO is that all I need or I need to make an understanding of all this? I don't mind doing it, but there is so many things already I got to deal with and take in and everything is a bit much. I am not drilling balls and so forth. For the people that do that They absolutely need to know all this.


No, you don't need to understand this stuff. If you're happy with the results you've been getting, don't change the recipe. Learning on this site, for the people that stick around and develop a good understanding of the system used here, is an endeavor of passion. When I first found BC, I spent about a year pouring through the wiki, past post, etc. At one point I went back and read every post posted by Mo or Steve. Then I went and trained with Mo and Ballspinner at the Innovative Pro Shop Training Class. I went through the BCU soon after it was up. I took it further than most, but that's more do to me having the resources and opportunity. I'm sure all of the long-term BC members would do the same if they had the opportunity. But I didn't need to do all of that. If you just want to do the minimum, keep doing what you're doing. If you want another opinion besides your PSO, go through the steps in the link EricHartwell provided and post your results. Someone here will chime in with suggestions more often than not. If you want to be as knowledgeable as possible about the modern game, follow Gary's advice from post 12 in this thread... viewtopic.php?p=10278#p10278

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 Post subject: Re: NIghtmare
 Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:05 am Post Number: #9 Post
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I understand If I am getting balls drilled and they don't do what I want then I have a problem. Every ball I have drilled up is bascially exactly what I am looking for. No complaints no problems. I am never about doing the minimum. But I don't want to take for instance Advanced Calculus 1 (like I did in college after cal 1-3) and never used any of it :) I am going to go back through all that again and see what I can do. What that class does is teach you what to do for everyone. I just care about myself. I don't want to be well you need this layout and this layout. I need to know what my layout issues are and forget the rest. I know if you want to be a PSO you need to know everyones layout. It is hard to learn EVERYTHING about everyone you know. I am afraid I could probably go through all this stuff do a "cram session" and then pass and then forget all the stuff I learned since I am not applying it.


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 Post subject: Re: NIghtmare
 Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:56 am Post Number: #10 Post
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Once more I feel your pain. Long story short
When I left bowling 2004 was my last yr I bowled league. Back then I had a pro shop I trusted and was ran by a female, Beatrice Martinez, but even back then CG, was 2nd to pap for layout and I was just getting in to drilling my own equipment.
Back in February I was coaxed into going to bowl lunar with the grandkids that was all it took, then after reading up on some ball reviews and all was surrounded by the dual angle layout. I was once again totally lost and still am to an extent. The first 2 balls I took to get drilled got jacked up right off the bat. When I asked the PSO about my pap and I shown him the OEM drill sheets. He said and I quote I don't need that, that means nothing to me in gonna kick you out 30* the dream big was all but useless, the respect pearl due to pin to pap is great on medium / dry lanes. the 2nd PSO jacked up my thumb. 3rd did great on thumb but missed the requested lay out. The 4th nailed the layout but thumbs over sized . So I've have read and watch more videos and articles than I care to mention. But I'm now 7 balls later I've have 4 that produce at least close to a desired result. I bowl currently on a spring league with 6wks left so until fall leagues starts I'm hoping to know enough about my release and my ability to control lift and speed only then will I make my next purchase and able to successfully perform the layout and take it in to get it drilled.. Patience and persistence always pays off.
Hang in there friend it will all come together.

As far as axis tilt and rotation mine is by eyeball from reviewing video. And after shooting another I think I'm actually closer to 45* with 17* tilt

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W.C
Pap 4 7/8 up 1 1/16
AT 13
AR 35
Speed 16.5- 17 @ monitor
RR 225 - 230


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