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 Post subject: need a peer check
 Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 5:07 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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Ok,  for the dual angle layout. Some people can read it once and they have it for me I am more of a hands on learner. Unfortunately I don't exactly have that option to be guided through the steps.  So after reading and then reading again and again. Then performing practice layouts on existing equipment I would like to get a peer check on what I've come up with for a prefered angle.

  

 So being slightly speed dominate, and at 35* rotation and 13* tilt. 2.1 ratio for ths, using 80*/ 3 26.6 round to 25, 80-25 =55 

So drill angle 55 val angle 25. With a 4.5 to pap


In opposite, 80 + 20 + 5 = 105 ÷ 3.5 30. 105-30 =75

So drill angle 75 and val angle of 30 with  4" pin to pap


I do get confused in the variables but i could be over be thinking those as well


Please advise yes / no, what I did do wrong/right


Thanks in advance

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 Post subject: Re: need a peer check
 Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 1:58 am Post Number: #2 Post
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deadpin6 wrote:
 Ok,  for the dual angle layout. Some people can read it once and they have it for me I am more of a hands on learner. Unfortunately I don't exactly have that option to be guided through the steps.  So after reading and then reading again and again. Then performing practice layouts on existing equipment I would like to get a peer check on what I've come up with for a prefered angle.  

 So being slightly speed dominate, and at 35* rotation and 13* tilt. 2.1 ratio for ths, using 80*/ 3 26.6 round to 25, 80-25 =55 
80* total is a total for someone that is definitely speed dominant. Slightly speed dominant plus you have low rotation and the ratio 2:1 reflects this. I add 5 to the total for low rotation.85/3=28.3 85-28.3=56.7.....Round this one to 55-4-30 55/30=1.83:1 ratio moving away on the other side of the 2:1 ratio target.
Sometimes it is easy to give in to changing the ratio other times you might want to give in to the total and keep the ratio. It just depends on the given situation.


So drill angle 55 val angle 25. With a 4.5 to pap
To check your math 55/25=2.2 :1 ratio.
Your target was 2:1
If you after a specific Shape which correlates to the Ratio. Rounding can throw things off


In opposite, 80 + 20 + 5 = 105 ÷ 3.5 30. 105-30 =75
this is a long and strong layout as compared to the first, benchmark
I just realized you added 5* for this one. Usually you do this first for the Benchmark.
Reverse the math on this one and you come up with 105-20=85*/3 and you get what I came up with 85/3=28.3 85-28.3=56.7.....Round this one to 55-4-30

So drill angle 75 and val angle of 30 with  4" pin to pap
To check your math 75/30=2.5 :1 Ratio

I do get confused in the variables but i could be over be thinking those as well

Please advise yes / no, what I did do wrong/right

Thanks in advance

Your ratio calculations and assigning of the drilling angle and VAL angles are correct.
Comments in color above

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 Post subject: Re: need a peer check
 Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 10:27 am Post Number: #3 Post
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I see what you mean. On the rounding out. Interesting on that to get to my actual ratio the numbers are always seem to the in between such as 48, or 23, 28 32 to get to the 2.1. So is it uncommon not to round to the nearest 5. Rather than going with a 57, or a 48, to go with the 55 or 50?

I went back and reread again on the ratios, ok so the 2.1 target can be raised or lowered according to pending conditions or desired/anticipated reaction be it mid lane or back end would this be a correct statement?

And I would also think coverstock and location of the pin from the cg, be it in or out???

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AT 13
AR 35
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 Post subject: Re: need a peer check
 Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 5:19 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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deadpin6 wrote:
I see what you mean. On the rounding out. Interesting on that to get to my actual ratio the numbers are always seem to the in between such as 48, or 23, 28 32 to get to the 2.1. So is it uncommon not to round to the nearest 5. Rather than going with a 57, or a 48, to go with the 55 or 50? You can leave the numbers as calculated, the prosect has individual degree marks. Rounding to the nearest 5 using your judgment on whether you go up or down can have many variables. Ball choice and human error are the first things that to come to mind. Unless you are ThrowbBot the release is going to have +/- errors.
If you have a tendency to throw it too fast at times I would round down or get too slow round up.
Rounding to the 5's makes layouts easier to recognize.
5* is not a significant change that is noticeable unless you are among the elite.


I went back and reread again on the ratios, ok so the 2.1 target can be raised or lowered according to pending conditions or desired/anticipated reaction be it mid lane or back end would this be a correct statement? Yes, adjusting the ratio adjusts the shape.

And I would also think coverstock and location of the pin from the cg, be it in or out???
Coverstock and its preparation is the most important part of matching up to conditions.
Pin to Cg distance is important when your desired layout positions it outside of your grip, balance holes need to be considered as well.


Comments in color above

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 Post subject: Re: need a peer check
 Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 12:46 am Post Number: #5 Post
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(Ok) a new hire from work is a bowler and after a few discussions about joining a league and in preparation he said he bought the ultimate nirvana and had it drillled with no mention of pap or Rev rate discussed with the driller. so at lunch we ran down to the local center and his track flare was about 2.5 to 3 inches and back end response was very weak. I mapped it out and also found his first two tracks catching the middle finger , he mapped out at 61/4 -0- up. And his lay out was below and in the middle of the fingers. His review rate 325 + and speed around 17 to 17.5. Low rotation < 20 with less than 6-8* tilt with pin to pap @ 5.5. After a long discussion about why his ball long with weak back end was difficult.

I said all of this, to ask if the layout I recommended for him is correct which is/was 70x4.5X20. He is looking for length with a strong angle of entry. Base on a 3:1 ratio. Though the math equates to 3.5 for the ratio being that he is favorably Rev dominate.

Looking for an opinion on my recommendation to him

Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: need a peer check
 Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:31 am Post Number: #6 Post
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deadpin6 wrote:
(Ok) a new hire from work is a bowler and after a few discussions about joining a league and in preparation he said he bought the ultimate nirvana and had it drillled with no mention of pap or Rev rate discussed with the driller. so at lunch we ran down to the local center and his track flare was about 2.5 to 3 inches and back end response was very weak. I mapped it out and also found his first two tracks catching the middle finger , he mapped out at 61/4 -0- up. And his lay out was below and in the middle of the fingers. His review rate 325 + and speed around 17 to 17.5. Low rotation < 20 with less than 6-8* tilt with pin to pap @ 5.5. After a long discussion about why his ball long with weak back end was difficult.

I said all of this, to ask if the layout I recommended for him is correct which is/was 70x4.5X20. He is looking for length with a strong angle of entry. Base on a 3:1 ratio. Though the math equates to 3.5 for the ratio being that he is favorably Rev dominate.

Looking for an opinion on my recommendation to him

Thanks in advance.


If his speed is off the hand I see it like this.....

For what ball did you recommend 70x4.5X20?
If it is Symmetrical I think you are right on with this recommendation.

When you get into very high ratios like this and higher totals the drilling angles can end up over 90*
One thing you can do is reduce the flare and use lower totals and ratios.
You are really close in your assessment for this bowler.

Rev dominant due to low tilt and rotation.
110* total 2.75:1 Ratio Asym Benchmark...80-3.25-30

Asym Long and Strong 90-2.75-30
Symmetrical long and strong Pin above the finger line-Motion hole, another very good option.

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 Post subject: Re: need a peer check
 Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:14 am Post Number: #7 Post
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Speed is measured @ the monitor
I didn't recommend the ball he bought it on his own. I had thought the iq tour 30, crux pearl maybe even the vintage zone.
the ball he purchased is the ultimate nirvana
He also cups the ball to where it looks like he's carrying a football. I've only seen 1 other person do that.

He's insisting on getting it re drilled told him to try making a surface adjustment first. He also says he never had an issue with rolling over the fingers, but I've only watch him throw the one ball.

The other item is the ball is pin in 0-1,

The 6 1/4 over seems excessive but where his track ran and the angle of the track in relation to grip. That is what it mapped out to.

Thanks again for your time


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 Post subject: Re: need a peer check
 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:11 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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deadpin6 wrote:
Speed is measured @ the monitor
I didn't recommend the ball he bought it on his own. I had thought the iq tour 30, crux pearl maybe even the vintage zone.
the ball he purchased is the ultimate nirvana
He also cups the ball to where it looks like he's carrying a football. I've only seen 1 other person do that.

He's insisting on getting it re drilled told him to try making a surface adjustment first. He also says he never had an issue with rolling over the fingers, but I've only watch him throw the one ball.

The other item is the ball is pin in 0-1,

The 6 1/4 over seems excessive but where his track ran and the angle of the track in relation to grip. That is what it mapped out to.

Thanks again for your time


Speed of the Monitor, ......75-3.25-25 Benchmark

Your suggested 70x4.5X20 ..... 4.5" pin to PAP, that will make ball read the friction harder but might burn up tilt and rotation too soon. A bit stronger than benchmark. I would be thinking P1 to reduce the flare, gain length and make legal. Especially with the short pin to Cg, it probably needs it.

Has the ball been drilled yet?

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 Post subject: Re: need a peer check
 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:36 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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Yes it's been drilled, I had no involvement in his current layout

I should have took a pic of the layout when I mapped the pap .
We went yesterday once more and his pap is actually 6.5 down a half, placed tap on pap for confirmation. Pin to pap is 5.5

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 Post subject: Re: need a peer check
 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:09 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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deadpin6 wrote:
Yes it's been drilled, I had no involvement in his current layout

Bummer, too bad you didn't get involved sooner.

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 Post subject: Re: need a peer check
 Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:26 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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Ok from what I've learned over the last few months evaluating my my own equipment over various lane conditions. I'm looking to purchase a new ball for the fall league that's starts in two weeks.

One of the 2 first choices is between the hammer dark ledgend solid and the optimus solid,
I've seen the first in use by other players the optimus I have not seen on the lanes.

What I'm looking for is more continuation on the back end.
I'm am favoring the hammer, 50X4.5X40

Would like to get others opinion before choosing this particular layout. And to see if I've actually learned anything

All of my other equipment has a Val angle of less than 35. From what I understand is the closer the value line the less continuation.

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 Post subject: Re: need a peer check
 Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:20 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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Shorter pin to PAP with Asymmetrical balls for more continuation.

Longer Pin to PAP on Asyms to get the ball to roll forward sooner.

I believe I benchmarked you with 85* totals, 1.75:1 Ratio

50-3-40 for the Dark Legend
Slightly raised total with Control Ratio. A really good idea for a fresh THS.
I went with the 3" pin to keep the ball from wanting to go into a roll as soon as its sees friction at the end of the pattern to help give you the continuation you are looking for.

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 Post subject: Re: need a peer check
 Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:11 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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Thanks Eric

The 3" pin did cross my mind and I see what you mean with lower tilt and rotation I need to retain it to get down the lane.

Going to migrate down and and inquire about the top weight.
Right now I'm trying to imagine the placement of the balance hole with a 3-4 pin @ 3" to pap @ 50*. Whether on pap other further up the gradient. If less than 3 oz I should get by without a supper large hole.

Or lay it out weigh it to determine the potential size and location?

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 Post subject: Re: need a peer check
 Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:18 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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deadpin6 wrote:
I see what you mean. On the rounding out. Interesting on that to get to my actual ratio the numbers are always seem to the in between such as 48, or 23, 28 32 to get to the 2.1. So is it uncommon not to round to the nearest 5. Rather than going with a 57, or a 48, to go with the 55 or 50?

I went back and reread again on the ratios, ok so the 2.1 target can be raised or lowered according to pending conditions or desired/anticipated reaction be it mid lane or back end would this be a correct statement?

And I would also think coverstock and location of the pin from the cg, be it in or out???

Round up or down to the nearest multiple of 5. It's not rocket science. As Mo has said, "We're not launching this thing into orbit."

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 Post subject: Re: need a peer check
 Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 4:22 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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Yes, lay it out and weigh it to give you an idea how the side/finger weight checks out. Then you will have an idea where you will need a balance hole.

If the Cg is close to the grip midline you will have the most options to tune the reaction. I would want to see it below the midline for a possible P3 for a stronger reaction.

It is not a deal breaker if it does not end up below the midline. Just drill the fingers deeper to accommodate a lower balance hole like P3. I was thinking about it and I'm thinking the ball is going to be plenty strong with the dull surface and you will want a P2 on your axis to make legal and keep the reaction the same.

Roll the ball before putting the balance hole in. Recheck your PAP then remap out the layout and drawing out the gradient line. Now decide where exactly you want and or need a hole.

The first roll of the ball should let you see easily the dry flare, take note of that when you are planning a balance hole. If you increase flare with a P3/P4 hole will the hole be in jeopardy of getting hit? The Dark Legend is a high flaring ball. Being a little bit speed dominant not as much risk. Rev dominant bowlers really need to pay attention to things like this
Just some things to think about.

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 Post subject: Re: need a peer check
 Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:46 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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deadpin6 wrote:
Right now I'm trying to imagine the placement of the balance hole with a 3-4 pin @ 3" to pap @ 50*. Whether on pap other further up the gradient.


50* is the drilling angle. With a 40* VAL angle the Cg is going to be really close to your midline. In the area of 3-1/2" from the pin. If the Cg is on the midline the logical hole is the P2.5 to make legal. this will give you a little bit stronger reaction, just not as much as would a P3 or P4.

Smaller Deeper holes have more effect than Larger Shallower holes.
Some more things to keep in mind.

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 Post subject: Re: need a peer check
 Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:50 am Post Number: #17 Post
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2 1/4 TW. Pin was actually 2-3 which i think is better pin landed about 2:30 position about 1/2" off the ring finger. Approximately tad over one ounce positive side weight. He also mention the hole would be small around the p2 area, I'd say you nailed it. Thanks again.

I'll be picking it up tomorrow gotta say feeling a little anxious.

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 Post subject: Re: need a peer check
 Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:38 pm Post Number: #18 Post
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A few weeks back, I wrote a little OpenJSCAD script to help visualize layouts. I wanted to add some additional features (balance holes, etc), but just haven't had the time. Depending on your span, this is what you're looking at in terms of that layout.

Attachment:
50x3x40.png


Steve


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 Post subject: Re: need a peer check
 Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:09 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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That's is close if not exactly where it landed
My span is 4 7/16

Don't have the gorilla grip my issue is my sausage fingers using the biggest inserts they have from the pro shop and my ring finger pops like a cork on a bottle on exit. Both fingers are snug to snug. Most people can fit their thumb in my finger inserts.

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Pap 4 7/8 up 1 1/16
AT 13
AR 35
Speed 16.5- 17 @ monitor
RR 225 - 230


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 Post subject: Re: need a peer check
 Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:38 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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deadpin6 wrote:
That's is close if not exactly where it landed
My span is 4 7/16

Don't have the gorilla grip my issue is my sausage fingers using the biggest inserts they have from the pro shop and my ring finger pops like a cork on a bottle on exit. Both fingers are snug to snug. Most people can fit their thumb in my finger inserts.


Have you thought about actually drilling your fingers and shaping them to your fingers, oval if necessary, no grips?

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