Need help differentiating slick conditions vs burning up

Questions about coaching?

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Mongo
Certified Coach
Certified Coach
Posts: 471
Joined: March 13th, 2014, 5:33 am
THS Average: 225
Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2" over, 1 1/2" up
Speed: 18 MPH
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 80
Preferred Company: DV8/Radical

Need help differentiating slick conditions vs burning up

Post by Mongo »

I'll be honest, this is probably one of the bigger holes in my game. It's pretty specific situation, but early in tournaments with heavier volumes and iffy surfaces, I get in spots where it's hard for me to tell the difference.

Case in point, I bowling in a tournament this weekend that was a higher volume/longer pattern (44 ft.) and the ball never seemed to pick up anything. On the fresh, I started with a Reax (45 x 3 1/4 x 30), and played it pretty straight. It was on old wood, so I new there had to be some sort of friction, but the ball never slowed down or made any real motion. I watched the ball's rotation and flare as it went down the lane looking for something. I saw the flare transition, but there was zero motion. I was playing dead straight...acutally, I pointing it a hair (laydown 5, looking 8-9, breakpoint 9-10), so I figured there would be some sort of movement. Nope. I could get the ball to hit OK, but I was pretty much piping it to the hole.

Later in the set, as a goof, I pulled out a shiny Diva (45 x 4 x 65) played the same line and actually got a wrinkle down lane, not much mind you, but enough to tell me that the Reax was burning up and not skidding 60 feet. Later on, my inability to identify the surface reaction was really exposed when I saw a couple of guys throwing IQ Tour Pearls and getting a hair of recovery and picking up just a touch of area in a spot where I had to throw it perfect.

That being said, I realized I'm missing something and have been for some time. I'll be honest that I've been slow to adjust to lane play moving from the front to the back, but it was exploited this weekend. Now, I can see it better in spots where there is some defined friction and feel pretty confident as they get toasty, but in early/fresh squads, I'm missing something.

So, as I've blabbed on, I guess my question is this. What ball motion/rotational transition (if it's not moving) should I look for on fresher conditions to detect energy loss?

Not sure how well worded this is, but I'd like to start up a conversation and will be more that happy to explain what I'm talking about. If I'm going to try to start really competing, this is a big leak in my game and I'm going to have to figure it out.
USBC Silver Certified Coach
JMerrell wrote:Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.
JMerrell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 1440
Joined: August 1st, 2010, 1:45 pm
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/8" x 1/2" up
Speed: 16 mph @ foul line
Rev Rate: 230
Axis Tilt: 20
Axis Rotation: 50
Location: Florence, Ky

Re: Need help differentiating slick conditions vs burning up

Post by JMerrell »

First of all you ball isn't burning up but not transitioning properly.

The following should help you understand this better.
1) A 44 foot tournament pattern usually doesn’t have free friction to your left as does the THS.

2) Outside of ten is usually unplayable on most 44 foot tournament patterns.

3) You can only play what / where the lane pattern gives up, but trying to play in the wrong part of the lane sends us home early.

4) Lane play strategy # 1 has always been if your ball is not hooking enough move left (in your case), ball hooking too much move right. Again, okay for the THS not for competitive tournament play.

5) This strategy works because THS are played right to left (in your case) and the free friction on the outside portion of the lane helps the ball slow down and give us a chance of obtaining proper ball motion.

6) The rule of 31 will give you an approximate area to look at down lane during competitive tournaments. In this case 44 minus 31 equals 13.

7) Therefore, I would suggest on that pattern you start by playing straight up 12-13 and evaluate your ball reaction.

8) If the ball isn’t facing up to the pocket and hitting hard enough, then you probably need to add more surface to the ball to help it slow down sooner and face up to the pocket better on the back end.

9) You should be using your practice time to make these adjustments. Keep a burgundy scotch bright pad in your back pocket for this purpose at all times.

10) As you state in your bio, that you prefer to play straighter angles when possible. Straighter to me doesn’t mean angling the ball at the pocket when the lanes are playing slicker, it means moving in and
getting my ball closer to the pocket when it changes direction. If my ball is only hooking 5 boards, on its path down the lane to the pocket it better not ever get further from the pocket then the 12 board.

11) On the other hand on short competitive patterns, my ball never gets inside the 5 board until it leaves the pattern.

12) Ball motion for me as an observer (coach) constitutes two points. Where the ball hits the lane and its location as it changes direction down lane.

13) Being observant of those who are having success on a tournament pattern will tell you where the ball needs to be as it changes direction, where the lane down point needs to be to bowler and equipment dependent.

14) By bowler dependent I mean that your rev rate, axis tilt, axis rotation, ball speed and ball of choice will determine your target up front.

15) A bowler who understands these principles and has your stats shouldn’t be having problems matching up to any tournament condition. Doesn't mean you will win then all, but you should be competitive.

16) The one glaring item that stands out to me in your listed stats is the 30 degrees of axis rotation. Usually, bowlers who utilize wrist cup and maintain it through the release struggle with lower axis
rotation.

Long post but trying to give you more insight to proper lane play.

I suggest you make a copy of the following, keep it in your wallet and pull it out every time you are struggling until you have it burned in your memory.

The dominant characteristic of ball motion is when and where the ball loses ball speed during it’s path down the lanne.
...by master lane play guru……Mo Pinel


Moved your post to the coaching discussion forum for additional member commentary.
-JMerrell
"Simplify the Motion.....Maximize the Results"
User avatar
Mongo
Certified Coach
Certified Coach
Posts: 471
Joined: March 13th, 2014, 5:33 am
THS Average: 225
Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2" over, 1 1/2" up
Speed: 18 MPH
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 80
Preferred Company: DV8/Radical

Re: Need help differentiating slick conditions vs burning up

Post by Mongo »

Thanks for a great reply. Lots to digest and comment on.

OK, Here we go.

JMerrell wrote:First of all you ball isn't burning up but not transitioning properly.

The following should help you understand this better.
1) A 44 foot tournament pattern usually doesn’t have free friction to your left as does the THS.

There are times I get stuck in 1988 lane play mode. Add to the fact that the longer, more developed patterns out now didn't exist much when I was ~competitive 10 years ago

2) Outside of ten is usually unplayable on most 44 foot tournament patterns.

After this weekend, I definitely agree

3) You can only play what / where the lane pattern gives up, but trying to play in the wrong part of the lane sends us home early.

Believe it or not, I was able to manufacture something. Shot -30 missing a ton a spares on right. The only reason I played out was because I saw a couple of slower lefties plaing out there....and by slow, I'm talking 14-14.5 MPH.

4) Lane play strategy # 1 has always been if your ball is not hooking enough move left (in your case), ball hooking too much move right. Again, okay for the THS not for competitive tournament play.

I totally get that. I will admit I was aftaid of playing in because the righties were chewing on the heads early. However, I'll also admit overthinking it by a mile because they weren't going to blow up that early. Yes, I'm a moron.

5) This strategy works because THS are played right to left (in your case) and the free friction on the outside portion of the lane helps the ball slow down and give us a chance of obtaining proper ball motion.

Again, there are times I play them wrong by slipping back to 1988.


6) The rule of 31 will give you an approximate area to look at down lane during competitive tournaments. In this case 44 minus 31 equals 13.

Rule of 31? Educate me.


7) Therefore, I would suggest on that pattern you start by playing straight up 12-13 and evaluate your ball reaction.

Looking back in post game analysis I really wish I had.

8) If the ball isn’t facing up to the pocket and hitting hard enough, then you probably need to add more surface to the ball to help it slow down sooner and face up to the pocket better on the back end.


Add this to the prior question. Straight up 12-13 or maybe even 15-16 to 12-13 might have been magic. At the time, I was seeing no evidence of friction so moving deeper (in my 1988 noggin, didn't really click.

9) You should be using your practice time to make these adjustments. Keep a burgundy scotch bright pad in your back pocket for this purpose at all times.


I don't disagree. They had abralon pads for like $5 and I almost got one. Not picking up a 1000 or even a 500 was bad execution

10) As you state in your bio, that you prefer to play straighter angles when possible. Straighter to me doesn’t mean angling the ball at the pocket when the lanes are playing slicker, it means moving in and
getting my ball closer to the pocket when it changes direction. If my ball is only hooking 5 boards, on its path down the lane to the pocket it better not ever get further from the pocket then the 12 board.

This is a broken record, but old school mindset.

11) On the other hand on short competitive patterns, my ball never gets inside the 5 board until it leaves the pattern.

Noted.

12) Ball motion for me as an observer (coach) constitutes two points. Where the ball hits the lane and its location as it changes direction down lane.

I don't disagree here. I would probably add how the flare transition occurs and sharply it comes off the breakpoint.

13) Being observant of those who are having success on a tournament pattern will tell you where the ball needs to be as it changes direction, where the lane down point needs to be to bowler and equipment dependent.

As a LH and watching local guys slow roll it at 14-15 MPH didn't give me much to compare with my game. One guy was throwing an IQ Tour Pearl up 5 and getting recovery. Another was throwing a C System thing in the same area. I could pick up the 2-4 playing straight up 5....and did.

14) By bowler dependent I mean that your rev rate, axis tilt, axis rotation, ball speed and ball of choice will determine your target up front.

Understood

15) A bowler who understands these principles and has your stats shouldn’t be having problems matching up to any tournament condition. Doesn't mean you will win then all, but you should be competitive.

I won't lie, I blew a ton of spares and still had a shot of putting up a decent set until I went split, split, chop in the middle of the last game. Actually, this was my first real tournament in 7-8 years and was using it as a barometer. I left feeling OK, but I've fallen behind.

16) The one glaring item that stands out to me in your listed stats is the 30 degrees of axis rotation. Usually, bowlers who utilize wrist cup and maintain it through the release struggle with lower axis
rotation.

Axis tilt closer to 45. Need to change that.


Long post but trying to give you more insight to proper lane play.

I suggest you make a copy of the following, keep it in your wallet and pull it out every time you are struggling until you have it burned in your memory.

The dominant characteristic of ball motion is when and where the ball loses ball speed during it’s path down the lanne.
...by master lane play guru……Mo Pinel


Moved your post to the coaching discussion forum for additional member commentary.
I never saw the ball slow down, but just didn't give them credit for being that slick. Figured a Reax drilled strong OOB surface would hook on ice. I was wrong.


Thanks again for the thoughtful reply. Really appreciate it.
USBC Silver Certified Coach
JMerrell wrote:Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.
JMerrell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 1440
Joined: August 1st, 2010, 1:45 pm
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/8" x 1/2" up
Speed: 16 mph @ foul line
Rev Rate: 230
Axis Tilt: 20
Axis Rotation: 50
Location: Florence, Ky

Re: Need help differentiating slick conditions vs burning up

Post by JMerrell »

Let’s be honest when your bowling well we (righties) know it’s too easy on your side and when you aren’t bowling well…we don’t care.

Forget about 1988, if you’re going to compete in today’s environment get educated.
We're here to help.

Rule 31 is used as a guideline competitive patterns……..Take the pattern length minus 31….this will give a starting area down lane near the end of the pattern to use as a breakpoint. Technically, it's closer to the exit point of the ball as it leaves the end of the pattern. But, this can't be seen from the foul line.

Therefore, I teach my students to define the breakpoint as the location of the ball down lane where the ball changes direction towards the pocket.

It’s just a starting point, but does serve it’s purpose.

Add this to the prior question. Straight up 12-13 or maybe even 15-16 to 12-13 might have been magic. At the time, I was seeing no evidence of friction so moving deeper (in my 1988 noggin, didn't really click.

Rule 31 would have given you direction with this.

12) Ball motion for me as an observer (coach) constitutes two points. Where the ball hits the lane and its location as it changes direction down lane.

I don't disagree here. I would probably add how the flare transition occurs and sharply it comes off the breakpoint.

Too much thinking, forget about flare transition (your ball driller should take care of this). Rarely will you ever need a ball that breaks sharply on a fresh competitive patterns.
2014 Mindset!

I left feeling OK, but I've fallen behind.
That’s why this site exists…..to help speed up the learning curve.

I never saw the ball slow down, but just didn't give them credit for being that slick. Figured a Reax drilled strong OOB surface would hook on ice. I was wrong.

Nothing hooks on ice…not even snow tires.
Use surface and get in the right part of the lane.
2014 Mindset
-JMerrell
"Simplify the Motion.....Maximize the Results"
User avatar
Mongo
Certified Coach
Certified Coach
Posts: 471
Joined: March 13th, 2014, 5:33 am
THS Average: 225
Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2" over, 1 1/2" up
Speed: 18 MPH
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 80
Preferred Company: DV8/Radical

Re: Need help differentiating slick conditions vs burning up

Post by Mongo »

JMerrell wrote:Let’s be honest when your bowling well we (righties) know it’s too easy on your side and when you aren’t bowling well…we don’t care.

[/color][/b]
Not to mention you mentioned playing inside 5. That's crazy talk. :D


Thanks again for the feedback, learning curve steep right now.
USBC Silver Certified Coach
JMerrell wrote:Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.
steve s
Member
Member
Posts: 391
Joined: January 30th, 2010, 1:25 am
Preferred Company: none
Location: cape girardeau , mo

Re: Need help differentiating slick conditions vs burning up

Post by steve s »

Merrell, snow tires with studs sure help on ice though ...more surface ,more surface and more surface..
Steve S
User avatar
kajmk
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3837
Joined: October 25th, 2010, 11:41 pm
Location: Sun City Arizona

Re: Need help differentiating slick conditions vs burning up

Post by kajmk »

Jim, your posts can never be too long!

Mongo, take a look at this thread.
Take note of the hook out vs roll out.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9879&p=77278&hilit=deflect#p77278" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
User avatar
rrb6699
Member
Member
Posts: 797
Joined: June 22nd, 2013, 12:24 am
THS Average: 235
Sport Average: 211
Positive Axis Point: 4 ovr, 1 up
Speed: 12-18.5 mph at pin deck
Rev Rate: 360
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 65
Heavy Oil Ball: 15#-Incognito, Obsession Sld, Altered Reality, Astrophyx Prl
Medium Oil Ball: 16# Quantum Violet, Honey Badger Rev, Venom Shock
Light Oil Ball: 15#: StarTrak Ureth -Sky Blue
Preferred Company: Radical, Storm/Roto, Brunswk
Location: Central Florida

Re: Need help differentiating slick conditions vs burning up

Post by rrb6699 »

t
steve s wrote:Merrell, snow tires with studs sure help on ice though ...more surface ,more surface and more surface..
Steve S
I find too much surface (for example 150/500) will be hard to skid very far (1st transition) which is why bowlers need to learn how to determine surface adjustments. I was (fortunate?) enough a couple weeks ago to bowl on 60' of heavy oil. something happened to the lane machine on several pairs and our team was on them.

the ball I used with this surface wore out the heads fairly quick, but, not downlane, then went straight as an arrow. 5pins, 5-7s, 8-10s, and you name it. NO power! I couldnt get the ball to set right and the pocket was extremely narrow. I had to parallel move outside to get any angle and started getting the 5pins out. but a slight mistake would set up on the nose or light. made the 6-7-10 three times that night.

I managed 180s and a 196 but only 2 doubles. nonetheless it was humbling to attack this condition with a ball surface that I thought would work but was ineffective.

if I ever run into this condition again, I will point it off the gutter for max angle.

nothing hooks on ice, but, choosing the right amount of surface is critical to playing any condition.

I learned a lot that night.

rr
User avatar
LabRat
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 1170
Joined: July 16th, 2011, 2:12 pm
THS Average: 208
Preferred Company: Storm
Location: Townsville, Australia

Re: Need help differentiating slick conditions vs burning up

Post by LabRat »

Mongo, if you feel the ball is burning early, loft one over the dots. If it hooks, the heads are chewing on it. If it skates, it's just slick.
Chemistry is like cooking - just don't lick the spoon.
Post Reply