Help! Too Much Speed

Questions about coaching?

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Viper
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Joined: March 14th, 2012, 3:36 am
THS Average: 199
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Positive Axis Point: 5 x 1/2 up
Speed: 15 at the foul line
Rev Rate: 315
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 45
Medium Oil Ball: 14 lbs. Hammer Raw Orange/Black Hybrid
Location: Short Pump, VA

Help! Too Much Speed

Post by Viper »

Looking for a few quick tips that I can experiment with during practice that may help me reduce my speed. I am definitely speed dominant. At the line I average 18.5 mph. Add Mo's 2.5 and that puts me at 21. My rev rate is between 250-275. I use a five-step approach and use the entire approach. A trusted friend observes that my first step is fine but after that I "take off." Everything that I've tried to date IOT reduce my speed has not worked--either I remain fast or my timing is thrown so far off that I am unstable at the line (cannot post). I might add, that I feel perfectly comfortable at my present speed: I never feel the weight of the ball, no shoulder/arm/wrist problems (I do wear a Mongoose Lifter), and no problems getting down at the line (no knee issues) and posting the shot. I'm LH and 62 years old (if that has any bearing on this). I can vary my tilt easily between 10 and 17* and well as rotation, between zero and roughly 70*. Normally, I'm ten on tilt and 45 on rotation. Thanks.
Left-handed
PAP 5 x 1/2 up
Tilt: 15*
Rot: 45*
Rev: 315
Speed: 15 at the camera
JMerrell
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Positive Axis Point: 5 1/8" x 1/2" up
Speed: 16 mph @ foul line
Rev Rate: 230
Axis Tilt: 20
Axis Rotation: 50
Location: Florence, Ky

Re: Help! Too Much Speed

Post by JMerrell »

Moved your topic here for further discussion.
Believe me when I first saw Magoo (chat member here) deliver the ball...I think the speed monitor melted!!!! He will be able to give you some great insight as he has reduced his ball speed a couple of light years.
-JMerrell
"Simplify the Motion.....Maximize the Results"
elgavachon
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Re: Help! Too Much Speed

Post by elgavachon »

JMerrell wrote:Moved your topic here for further discussion.
Believe me when I first saw Magoo (chat member here) deliver the ball...I think the speed monitor melted!!!! He will be able to give you some great insight as he has reduced his ball speed a couple of light years.
Put a sock on your push off foot. That is how Magoo did it.
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Viper
Member
Member
Posts: 355
Joined: March 14th, 2012, 3:36 am
THS Average: 199
Sport Average: 172
Positive Axis Point: 5 x 1/2 up
Speed: 15 at the foul line
Rev Rate: 315
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 45
Medium Oil Ball: 14 lbs. Hammer Raw Orange/Black Hybrid
Location: Short Pump, VA

Re: Help! Too Much Speed

Post by Viper »

elgavachon wrote: Put a sock on your push off foot. That is how Magoo did it.
OK, I'll give the sock a try. I researched best I could on-line for tips/techniques for slowing down but all I could find was the opposite--for increasing speed. Appreciate the help elgavachon.
Left-handed
PAP 5 x 1/2 up
Tilt: 15*
Rot: 45*
Rev: 315
Speed: 15 at the camera
magoo
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Joined: January 27th, 2010, 12:40 am
Positive Axis Point: 3 1/2 up 1/2
Speed: 18-20 off the hand
Rev Rate: 220
Axis Tilt: 23
Heavy Oil Ball: DestroyerR,LevRg
Medium Oil Ball: taboo,Aggressive Motion
Light Oil Ball: Insane Leverage,Solid Leverage
Location: Pasadena,Md

Re: Help! Too Much Speed

Post by magoo »

I was very speed dominate just like you for years. I spent two years working with both Mo and Jim working on among other things slowing down my feet. Most of your ball speed is based on how fast your feet are. I just could not get myself to slow my feet down enough to make a noticeable difference.
As was already suggested you can try a slide sock on your push off shoe. You will not be able to get any traction. You will be forced to walk like you were on ice. This will slow your feet down which in turn will slow your ball speed.
Yes, your timing will be off until your brain adjusts the speed of your swing. It will take about a week. Your spare game will suffer the most until you get used to it.
I have managed to lose over 5 mph off my ball speed in the last year. I believe that my rev rate has gone up slightly also. My arm isn't trying to catch up with my feet so I have more time to get around the ball.
Here is my original post in regards to this. viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6207&p=50982&hilit=solution+for+fast+feet#p50982
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Viper
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Posts: 355
Joined: March 14th, 2012, 3:36 am
THS Average: 199
Sport Average: 172
Positive Axis Point: 5 x 1/2 up
Speed: 15 at the foul line
Rev Rate: 315
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 45
Medium Oil Ball: 14 lbs. Hammer Raw Orange/Black Hybrid
Location: Short Pump, VA

Re: Help! Too Much Speed

Post by Viper »

magoo wrote:I was very speed dominate just like you for years. I spent two years working with both Mo and Jim working on among other things slowing down my feet. Most of your ball speed is based on how fast your feet are. I just could not get myself to slow my feet down enough to make a noticeable difference.
As was already suggested you can try a slide sock on your push off shoe. You will not be able to get any traction. You will be forced to walk like you were on ice. This will slow your feet down which in turn will slow your ball speed.
Yes, your timing will be off until your brain adjusts the speed of your swing. It will take about a week. Your spare game will suffer the most until you get used to it.
I have managed to lose over 5 mph off my ball speed in the last year. I believe that my rev rate has gone up slightly also. My arm isn't trying to catch up with my feet so I have more time to get around the ball.
Here is my original post in regards to this. viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6207&p=50982&hilit=solution+for+fast+feet#p50982
Magoo--Thanks for the background on the use of the sock. I'm very much like you were, that is, no matter what I do (or think I'm doing), I cannot get my speed to drop. I assume because of the sock that you moved-up on the approach? Will come back to you in a few weeks and report progress. Again, thanks.
Left-handed
PAP 5 x 1/2 up
Tilt: 15*
Rot: 45*
Rev: 315
Speed: 15 at the camera
magoo
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Posts: 190
Joined: January 27th, 2010, 12:40 am
Positive Axis Point: 3 1/2 up 1/2
Speed: 18-20 off the hand
Rev Rate: 220
Axis Tilt: 23
Heavy Oil Ball: DestroyerR,LevRg
Medium Oil Ball: taboo,Aggressive Motion
Light Oil Ball: Insane Leverage,Solid Leverage
Location: Pasadena,Md

Re: Help! Too Much Speed

Post by magoo »

I did not change my starting point on the lane. I am a four stepper and start 6 inches in front of the first dots. If I recall correctly moving me up on the approach was one thing we tried to slow me down. It didn't work.
You may find yourself moving up a little on the approach because your steps may end up being a little shorter because you will be walking more "gently".
I am pretty confident that this will work for you.
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Viper
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Posts: 355
Joined: March 14th, 2012, 3:36 am
THS Average: 199
Sport Average: 172
Positive Axis Point: 5 x 1/2 up
Speed: 15 at the foul line
Rev Rate: 315
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 45
Medium Oil Ball: 14 lbs. Hammer Raw Orange/Black Hybrid
Location: Short Pump, VA

Re: Help! Too Much Speed

Post by Viper »

magoo wrote:I did not change my starting point on the lane. I am a four stepper and start 6 inches in front of the first dots. If I recall correctly moving me up on the approach was one thing we tried to slow me down. It didn't work.
You may find yourself moving up a little on the approach because your steps may end up being a little shorter because you will be walking more "gently".
I am pretty confident that this will work for you.
I'm five steps and start basically where you do, so this will be interesting! Again, thanks.
Left-handed
PAP 5 x 1/2 up
Tilt: 15*
Rot: 45*
Rev: 315
Speed: 15 at the camera
User avatar
Viper
Member
Member
Posts: 355
Joined: March 14th, 2012, 3:36 am
THS Average: 199
Sport Average: 172
Positive Axis Point: 5 x 1/2 up
Speed: 15 at the foul line
Rev Rate: 315
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 45
Medium Oil Ball: 14 lbs. Hammer Raw Orange/Black Hybrid
Location: Short Pump, VA

Re: Help! Too Much Speed

Post by Viper »

Magoo,

The sock works well. Last night ahead of league I used the sock to throw a practice game to get the feel of things. I took away a sense of walking on eggs. For league play I used this ("sense") to help me slow down. It worked most of the time. My speed average for the first ball through the 3-game series was 15.50 mph. That is 1.5 to 2 mph slower than what I've done in the past. I could actually miss left last night and have the ball come back. Before it would sail through and wash. Missing right was not good. Fortunately, I was able to better control the ball (accuracy) so missing right was the exception as opposed to the rule (at 17 mph).

At practice today (3 games) I used the sock throughout and got my speed down to the high thirteens on more than several of the throws. First ball average for the series: 14.32.

I found myself having to move up to the second row of dots IOT finish close to the foul line. Even then I was probably a good six inches back upon completion of the delivery. The one disconcerting thing about the sock was that I could not plant my power step and get sufficient slide. It always slipped back on me. I felt I was more erect in the delivery then normal. Not sure at this point if I need to be too concerned about that. I was able get my left leg to actually sweep to my right which was a help for me. No trouble posting my shot.

As you pointed out, shooting spares will need me to reconfigure my system. Or not. I may try to bowl as I have been for spare and slow down for the strike shots. I'll be experimenting see what works best.

Bottomline: It works. I threw a 601 last night, my first 600 series of this season.

Thanks!
Left-handed
PAP 5 x 1/2 up
Tilt: 15*
Rot: 45*
Rev: 315
Speed: 15 at the camera
elgavachon
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Re: Help! Too Much Speed

Post by elgavachon »

Viper wrote:Magoo,

The sock works well. Last night ahead of league I used the sock to throw a practice game to get the feel of things. I took away a sense of walking on eggs. For league play I used this ("sense") to help me slow down. It worked most of the time. My speed average for the first ball through the 3-game series was 15.50 mph. That is 1.5 to 2 mph slower than what I've done in the past. I could actually miss left last night and have the ball come back. Before it would sail through and wash. Missing right was not good. Fortunately, I was able to better control the ball (accuracy) so missing right was the exception as opposed to the rule (at 17 mph).

At practice today (3 games) I used the sock throughout and got my speed down to the high thirteens on more than several of the throws. First ball average for the series: 14.32.

I found myself having to move up to the second row of dots IOT finish close to the foul line. Even then I was probably a good six inches back upon completion of the delivery. The one disconcerting thing about the sock was that I could not plant my power step and get sufficient slide. It always slipped back on me. I felt I was more erect in the delivery then normal. Not sure at this point if I need to be too concerned about that. I was able get my left leg to actually sweep to my right which was a help for me. No trouble posting my shot.

As you pointed out, shooting spares will need me to reconfigure my system. Or not. I may try to bowl as I have been for spare and slow down for the strike shots. I'll be experimenting see what works best.

Bottomline: It works. I threw a 601 last night, my first 600 series of this season.

Thanks!
After you get the feel, you can take the sock off and still plant the power step & not re-gain excessive speed. I have done this to a couple of people. My son used the sock for 2 months before he could take it off & not regain too much speed. He is now rev dominant without the sock. He dropped from 21 mph+ at the monitor to 15-16. I only had to use it one practice session & I was able to take it off.
magoo
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Posts: 190
Joined: January 27th, 2010, 12:40 am
Positive Axis Point: 3 1/2 up 1/2
Speed: 18-20 off the hand
Rev Rate: 220
Axis Tilt: 23
Heavy Oil Ball: DestroyerR,LevRg
Medium Oil Ball: taboo,Aggressive Motion
Light Oil Ball: Insane Leverage,Solid Leverage
Location: Pasadena,Md

Re: Help! Too Much Speed

Post by magoo »

I believe that with a little practice it will become natural for you. Myself, I had a slide sole put on my right shoe. I don't know if I could wear a regular shoe now or not. I have lost 5.5 to 6mph off my regular ball speed. I can lose another 1.5 mph if I really concentrate. Give it some time and maybe in the future you won't need the sock or you might adapt and your power step and slide will come back. I have a fairly long slide myself.
I will be in Richmond in a week or two if you would like to meet.
User avatar
Viper
Member
Member
Posts: 355
Joined: March 14th, 2012, 3:36 am
THS Average: 199
Sport Average: 172
Positive Axis Point: 5 x 1/2 up
Speed: 15 at the foul line
Rev Rate: 315
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 45
Medium Oil Ball: 14 lbs. Hammer Raw Orange/Black Hybrid
Location: Short Pump, VA

Re: Help! Too Much Speed

Post by Viper »

magoo wrote:I believe that with a little practice it will become natural for you. Myself, I had a slide sole put on my right shoe. I don't know if I could wear a regular shoe now or not. I have lost 5.5 to 6mph off my regular ball speed. I can lose another 1.5 mph if I really concentrate. Give it some time and maybe in the future you won't need the sock or you might adapt and your power step and slide will come back. I have a fairly long slide myself.
I will be in Richmond in a week or two if you would like to meet.
Sure. Send me a pm or e-mail when you have your plans set. Thanks again for your help.
Left-handed
PAP 5 x 1/2 up
Tilt: 15*
Rot: 45*
Rev: 315
Speed: 15 at the camera
User avatar
Viper
Member
Member
Posts: 355
Joined: March 14th, 2012, 3:36 am
THS Average: 199
Sport Average: 172
Positive Axis Point: 5 x 1/2 up
Speed: 15 at the foul line
Rev Rate: 315
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 45
Medium Oil Ball: 14 lbs. Hammer Raw Orange/Black Hybrid
Location: Short Pump, VA

Re: Help! Too Much Speed

Post by Viper »

UPDATE: I've been practicing every day this week. For the first game of every session I've used the sock on my left shoe (I'm left-handed). After the first game, I bowl without it for the remainder of the session.

This has worked wonders for me. Today I bowled six practice games: 196/203/213/223/203/208 (each game a different ball).

Average first-ball speed for the six-game series: 15.43 mph. I actually decreased my speed a bit from the first game through the series, which is a plus. Normally, when I start to wear, I revert to old habits (speed).

I can actually walk away from the approach after delivery and tell you what the speed on the monitor is going to be (under 15 / 15 / over 15) with pretty fair accuracy.

I continue to go 17 mph at my spares. I thought this would have negative consequences for me but it hasn't. Being able to move back and forth with my speed tells me that when I need to add something to the strike shot to get to the pocket, I should be able to do so.

Will continue to use the sock for a practice game for the foreseeable future to negate any backsliding.

Magoo--you're the man! Thanks!!!!
Left-handed
PAP 5 x 1/2 up
Tilt: 15*
Rot: 45*
Rev: 315
Speed: 15 at the camera
User avatar
Viper
Member
Member
Posts: 355
Joined: March 14th, 2012, 3:36 am
THS Average: 199
Sport Average: 172
Positive Axis Point: 5 x 1/2 up
Speed: 15 at the foul line
Rev Rate: 315
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 45
Medium Oil Ball: 14 lbs. Hammer Raw Orange/Black Hybrid
Location: Short Pump, VA

Re: Help! Too Much Speed

Post by Viper »

Viper wrote:UPDATE: I've been practicing every day this week. For the first game of every session I've used the sock on my left shoe (I'm left-handed). After the first game, I bowl without it for the remainder of the session.

This has worked wonders for me. Today I bowled six practice games: 196/203/213/223/203/208 (each game a different ball).

Average first-ball speed for the six-game series: 15.43 mph. I actually decreased my speed a bit from the first game through the series, which is a plus. Normally, when I start to wear, I revert to old habits (speed).

I can actually walk away from the approach after delivery and tell you what the speed on the monitor is going to be (under 15 / 15 / over 15) with pretty fair accuracy.

I continue to go 17 mph at my spares. I thought this would have negative consequences for me but it hasn't. Being able to move back and forth with my speed tells me that when I need to add something to the strike shot to get to the pocket, I should be able to do so.

Will continue to use the sock for a practice game for the foreseeable future to negate any backsliding.

Magoo--you're the man! Thanks!!!!
Final update. A 668 last week and a 603 at the beginning of this week, and a couple of 600+'s in my practice sessions. I'm back to where I used to be (190+ bowler) and it was all about the speed--getting it lower. I took a lesson recently and used the sock for a few games during the lesson, to demonstrate how I was able to lower my speed. Coach has now put that trick in his toolbox, figuratively, for future use. Only on BowlingChat.net could I find the help needed to fix this part of my game. Thanks again.
Left-handed
PAP 5 x 1/2 up
Tilt: 15*
Rot: 45*
Rev: 315
Speed: 15 at the camera
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