More Axis Rotation for More Skid?

Questions about coaching?

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
gyoza
Member
Member
Posts: 322
Joined: February 22nd, 2011, 3:58 pm

More Axis Rotation for More Skid?

Post by gyoza »

At a USBC Bronze coaching clinic, /increasing/ axis rotation on lighter oil, drier lanes, or shorter patterns to increase skid was mentioned. I understand how that /could/ work, but for me it makes the ball just hook more or snap harder. I don't really have control over axis tilt, so my adjustment would be to use /less/ axis rotation and/or a different ball. Is increasing axis rotation standard thinking and am I missing something important?
kboveington
Member
Member
Posts: 342
Joined: May 24th, 2013, 8:39 am
THS Average: 225
Positive Axis Point: 5 7/16 right ⅜ down
Speed: 20-21 mph at foul line
Rev Rate: 550
Axis Tilt: 5
Axis Rotation: 55
Medium Oil Ball: storm IQ tour pearl
Light Oil Ball: rotogrip scream
Preferred Company: storm/roto grip
Location: Cleveland Ohio

Re: More Axis Rotation for More Skid?

Post by kboveington »

You are right that the higher axis rotation will produce more of a violent change of direction once it hits friction. Who wants to see the ball go dead left at the end of the cheetah pattern? I know I dont!! I would prefer a smoother more controlled motion at the breakpoint.

Usually a higher axis rotation release equals more tilt, and there is a time and place for those that are good enough to put more tilt on the ball when needed. I think as a coach you have to take it as a case by case scenario. Work with the players talent level and ability. I think you'll find in most cases bowlers would be more comfortable by putting the right ball in their hand and keeping their release the same.

In some cases ill use myself as an example. Since I am primarily a 2 handed bowler my tilt stays very close to the same the same whether I get around the ball 90* or 10*. My tilt is always low, 3 degrees. And I'm pretty sure when I come up the back of the ball there is almost none. So I combat drier conditions with weaker covers and drilling the ball for optimum length.

Im not sure what level you are coaching at? But if the player seems to be ready and capable of learning or experimenting with new releases. I would encourage them to do so. Its always nice to have options when your normal release isn't working. Its nice to have a plan b release or even c if you're good enough. If *said bowler* happens to find a new release they like, encourage them to practice it! A LOT! And get that into muscle memory. It does no good if they don't fully trust it in competition.
Make spares make cut, miss spares miss cut. " Bill O'Neil "
User avatar
gyoza
Member
Member
Posts: 322
Joined: February 22nd, 2011, 3:58 pm

Re: More Axis Rotation for More Skid?

Post by gyoza »

kboveington, maybe it's different for us since we're both two-handers. My rev rate can easily exceed my speed. Maybe higher axis rotation works better for balanced or speed-dominant bowlers. When I mess around one-handed, the ball moves so much faster it doesn't have a chance!

I've also heard the suggestion to increase axis rotation for spare shots. I tried it two-handed for the 10-pin and that was a fail! Now I either use low axis rotation or a slight clockwise movement of the hand to produce a flat roll. Using that technique, I can roll a reactive ball straight. (Backing up is not my thing. heh)

Oh, yeah, increasing tilt makes more sense to me, if the bowler can do it.

I think the USBC manual made a distinction between shorter and drier house conditions versus sport conditions.
User avatar
Nsane
Certified Coach
Certified Coach
Posts: 650
Joined: June 15th, 2010, 5:01 pm
THS Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: 5 3/16 - 7/8 up
Speed: 17
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 13°
Axis Rotation: 55°
Heavy Oil Ball: Brunswick Tenacity, Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Guru mighty,
Light Oil Ball: Motiv venom cobra
Preferred Company: Radical
Location: Germany

Re: More Axis Rotation for More Skid?

Post by Nsane »

gyoza wrote:I've also heard the suggestion to increase axis rotation for spare shots.
absolute "NO". Specialy when you are revdominant. Than you are endangered that the ball jumps of its way short before the target. For spares use a Rotation low as possible. A end over end roll is the perfect spareshoot. Just let your thumb point to the targetpin and keep this handposition. Your ball will go straight like a strained string.

Thomas
Image
Ducati what else?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nice people press +
User avatar
kajmk
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3837
Joined: October 25th, 2010, 11:41 pm
Location: Sun City Arizona

Re: More Axis Rotation for More Skid?

Post by kajmk »

Keep in mind that Greater Axis Rotation = Greater Hook POTENTIAL.

I would bet that Pete Weber cuts his Axis Rotation when shooting 10 pins, then there is that Duke fella.

Palmer Falgren wrote a good article dealing with Tilt And Axis Rotation for BTW, this one is one of the Golden articles in the BTM archives.

Roll a tennis ball on a rug with 90 degrees axis rotation and it will flip so fast it will almost be a blur.
Do the same on the approach of the lane (no oil) and the same thing will happen,well almost.

Many times the interaction of variables including the lane, the ball, the bowler create a scenario where tweaking more than one variable works better than just one.

Spin a top and it remains fairly in place in the tiny circle until it loses tilt an the circle widens until the top falls.

The Asian spinner has max tilt and min axis rotation, goes pretty straight and depends on deflection for its success, it's an example of an extreme and it was born out of necessity due to lane conditions.

Create a matrix of adjustments for your bowling tool box. Augment the matrix customized with your current strengths and weaknesses. Work with your matrix, observe cause and effect noting conditions etc. This also shows areas for growth. Either has such a matrix in his book, others too.
I think there is one in the USBC manual too.
N.B. detail how the adjustments work FOR YOU!

Consider RPMS as a variable too, RPMS are a magnifier.

Try adding RPM adjustments in tandem with other adjustments an observe.

TILT can be an adjustment for power through the pins.

Consider the terrible TOOS AS IN TOO MUCH OR TOO LITTLE. In many cases, extremes present more challenge, e.g. 90 vs 0 degrees of rotation or tilt.

Always practice with a PAP and REV tape, use video when you can, enhance with your verbal comments!



Submitted via KINDLE. I hate typing on this thing.

Take care
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
kboveington
Member
Member
Posts: 342
Joined: May 24th, 2013, 8:39 am
THS Average: 225
Positive Axis Point: 5 7/16 right ⅜ down
Speed: 20-21 mph at foul line
Rev Rate: 550
Axis Tilt: 5
Axis Rotation: 55
Medium Oil Ball: storm IQ tour pearl
Light Oil Ball: rotogrip scream
Preferred Company: storm/roto grip
Location: Cleveland Ohio

Re: More Axis Rotation for More Skid?

Post by kboveington »

Gyoza, nice to see a fellow 2 hander on the site! Nice to see great posts from the previous two members as well.

Gyoza, some suggestions for shooting spares. If you haven't seen Jason Belmonte on tv yet, YouTube him, watch how he throws his spares dead straight while maintaining good firm ball speed. He uses a plastic ball for every spare other then sleepers. Try this its especially effective on sport shots for you take the *guess work* out of the pattern. I myself have moved on to throwing it 1 handed with a plastic ball straight with almost a complete end over end roll. Kinda like osku palarrma except not 35mph LOL! I've found its less taxing on the body as a one handed approach is far less work.
Make spares make cut, miss spares miss cut. " Bill O'Neil "
User avatar
gyoza
Member
Member
Posts: 322
Joined: February 22nd, 2011, 3:58 pm

Re: More Axis Rotation for More Skid?

Post by gyoza »

kajmk wrote:Always practice with a PAP and REV tape, use video when you can, enhance with your verbal comments!
Nice idea!
User avatar
gyoza
Member
Member
Posts: 322
Joined: February 22nd, 2011, 3:58 pm

Re: More Axis Rotation for More Skid?

Post by gyoza »

kboveington wrote:Gyoza, nice to see a fellow 2 hander on the site!
You mean, there aren't plenty of us hiding around here? I attached two recent videos to prove that we are not alone. ^_* EDIT: It looks like my WMV video files weren't accepted. Adding to YouTube.

I do have a video of some of my spare shots, but it's older. Just to add challenge and to "master" my deliveries, I shoot everything two-handed. Honestly, I have a better chance that way!

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]
User avatar
kajmk
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3837
Joined: October 25th, 2010, 11:41 pm
Location: Sun City Arizona

Re: More Axis Rotation for More Skid?

Post by kajmk »

Re: practicing with a PAP and Rev tape, as far as I recall, I got the idea from an instructional video by
Don Johnson, that's where I saw it first. Later on I drilled a tiny hole in my PAP in a few balls and painted it white, idea from coach Rolf Gauger.

As for 2 handed, I toyed with it myself at age 56. Due to an illness, job changes and a few other reasons, my bowling has been in mothballs since then, I guess its about 8-9 years.
Had I not stopped bowling, I would have pursued the style. That's as Rafiki says is "in de past!"

I had been toying with 1 handed thumbless but decided on 2 handed to generate more speed.
I morphed into it by watching Patrick Healy Jr. believe it or not, I fell right into it. I'm not saying I was Belmo, but it had potential even for an old goat.

Tom Smallwood is a half thumber who is almost a 2 hander, interesting style.

Cheers y'all

Cheers.
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
User avatar
gyoza
Member
Member
Posts: 322
Joined: February 22nd, 2011, 3:58 pm

Re: More Axis Rotation for More Skid?

Post by gyoza »

Here's a test I did with recording a marked ball. The last shot is a plastic ball that hooked a little due to the axis rotation.

[youtube][/youtube]
Ron Clifton
Certified Coach
Certified Coach
Posts: 13
Joined: January 29th, 2010, 4:52 pm

Re: More Axis Rotation for More Skid?

Post by Ron Clifton »

I am glad you asked this question gyoza, I see a future BTM article about this. This was a timely question for me, as I have been teaching players (mostly PBA regional players) to increase axis rotation a lot lately. It seems to have become a lost art.

I go to a lot of PBA regionals (southern) and I see lots of times that bowlers need to increase their axis rotation. When Kegel stopped doing the lanes for the tour and all the patterns were changed they took a lot of volume out of the heads. During the Kegel era all the volume was in the heads so everyone learned to stay behind the ball and rev it a bunch.

Now after a few games the balls are starting to read just past the arrows and start burning up in the mid-lanes. The bowlers try to get deep enough and throw hard enough to get the ball through the heads but they can't create any area at the breakpoint that way.

I can take a bowler that is struggling that way, show him how to throw somewhere between 65 and 80 degrees of axis rotation and they can't miss the pocket. The increased axis rotation allows the ball to skid through the heads, burn up to about 45 degrees in the mid-lane and bleed off another 5 to 10 degrees between the breakpoing and the pocket. When you have that condition you can often open up 5 to 7 boards worth of area at the breakpoint, which is twice what you had before.

So yes, adding more axis rotation when the condition calls for it is the proper thing to do, and it will allow the ball to skid more through the heads.

Some things to keep in mind. You may actually need more surface not less surface to get the ball to burn properly. If the ball leaves your hand at 75 degrees and it maintains that much axis rotation all the way to the breakpoint then yes, it is going to go sideways on the back end.

Someone said something about Cheetah. It's not necessarily a short pattern when you would use a lot of axis rotation, although even Cheetah can be a good candidate by game six. Cheetah is short pattern, but there is a ton of volume the first 30 feet, so skidding the ball through the heads is not a problem. It's the med. and longer patterns that you apply more axis rotation too when needed.

Very high rev players like some of the two handed bowlers may require less axis rotation to do the same trick. Very soon I will be working with one of the best two handed bowlers in the country (Kyle Troup) and I am going to work on the axis rotation issue with him. I will let you know what I come up with if you wish.

Bowl great!
Ron Clifton
guruU2
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 1057
Joined: March 31st, 2010, 7:27 pm
Location: Camp Springs MD

Re: More Axis Rotation for More Skid?

Post by guruU2 »

Ron Clifton wrote:It's the med. and longer patterns that you apply more axis rotation too when needed.
And that is a fact. Thanks for the post Ron.
-Gary Parsons
If one does not know one's product, one can not manage nor promote the product one does not know.
User avatar
gyoza
Member
Member
Posts: 322
Joined: February 22nd, 2011, 3:58 pm

Re: More Axis Rotation for More Skid?

Post by gyoza »

Thanks, Ron. Yes, I wish it. I'd like to hear any updates on this topic. (Another "Ron" talking about increasing axis rotation... ^_^)

In the past, just about every time someone saw me throw a ball, I got comments about turning my hand around it too much. Now my speed is higher and I can control the axis rotation better. I did notice recently however, that when I was on dry lanes and trying to stay behind the ball more, I saw reduced carry and even splits. A little more axis rotation helped. Really, I'd like to be able to manipulate axis TILT more in order to control skid, but I'll take what I can get. ^_^
Dax
Member
Member
Posts: 263
Joined: March 8th, 2011, 7:38 pm
THS Average: 230

Re: More Axis Rotation for More Skid?

Post by Dax »

gyoza wrote:Thanks, Ron. Yes, I wish it. I'd like to hear any updates on this topic. (Another "Ron" talking about increasing axis rotation... ^_^)

In the past, just about every time someone saw me throw a ball, I got comments about turning my hand around it too much. Now my speed is higher and I can control the axis rotation better. I did notice recently however, that when I was on dry lanes and trying to stay behind the ball more, I saw reduced carry and even splits. A little more axis rotation helped. Really, I'd like to be able to manipulate axis TILT more in order to control skid, but I'll take what I can get. ^_^
Another converted two hander here in the past 12 mths- after bowling one handed for 20 plus years.

Experiencing some of the same problems you described.

Still get a lot of comments of what I am doing and what I am not doing and why it is so wrong etc, but I know it is a work in progress.

I've managed a 290, a 289 (the front 10) and a few 270's to date, but some difficulty in putting three good games together frequently.
"You see only what you look for; you recognize only what you know"

There are many worlds out there. Some of them can be accessed through reading. Encourage reading - T.A. Sankar

http://www.tasankar.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
gyoza
Member
Member
Posts: 322
Joined: February 22nd, 2011, 3:58 pm

Re: More Axis Rotation for More Skid?

Post by gyoza »

Dax wrote:Still get a lot of comments of what I am doing and what I am not doing and why it is so wrong etc, but I know it is a work in progress.

I've managed a 290, a 289 (the front 10) and a few 270's to date, but some difficulty in putting three good games together frequently.
Are the comments about the concept of two-hander being wrong, or your execution of two-handing being off?

Those are some nice games, and maybe partly why people don't like you two-handing! hehe You're probably running into oil pattern transition and not adjusting well enough or soon enough. That can be viewed as a separate issue--lane play.

With a relatively high rev rate, I feel that oil patterns can light up a like a Christmas tree sometimes. Meaning, when you hit dry boards, you'll really know it. Sometimes that helps. Sometimes it can work against you. The trick is to make it work for you more often. ^_^
User avatar
JJakobsen
Certified Coach
Certified Coach
Posts: 283
Joined: March 10th, 2013, 9:59 pm
Sport Average: 180
Positive Axis Point: 3 1/2 right, 1 1/2 up
Speed: 15.5 downlane
Rev Rate: 450
Axis Tilt: 0
Axis Rotation: 30
Heavy Oil Ball: Storm Marvel Pearl
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick Inferno
Light Oil Ball: Storm Timeless
Preferred Company: 900 Global
Location: Svolvær, Lofoten, Norway

Re: More Axis Rotation for More Skid?

Post by JJakobsen »

I am a regular one hand bowler, but my two cents anyway.

Played national under 23 (yrs) last weekend, played with 45 degree axis rotation as I always do, went on to the semi final the day after, and with blisters and muscle aches, I could not get the ball down the lane, got stuck at 20km/h instead of 22-23.

But the ball hooked less. When I used my Pink Panther I could see why it wouldn't read, or do anything really... 90 degree axis rotation, Weber style. It never got to rolling and hooking before it was too late, so I had to play really tight or slow down the 1st arrow.

And I've seen it before as well, so it is true from what I can see.

About the axis rotation, saw alot of 400rpm players with forward roll in the nationals. Don't know why it is so popular, but it is..
68.2353°N 14.5636°E is where it happens!
Dax
Member
Member
Posts: 263
Joined: March 8th, 2011, 7:38 pm
THS Average: 230

Re: More Axis Rotation for More Skid?

Post by Dax »

Are the comments about the concept of two-hander being wrong, or your execution of two-handing being off?

Those are some nice games, and maybe partly why people don't like you two-handing! hehe You're probably running into oil pattern transition and not adjusting well enough or soon enough. That can be viewed as a separate issue--lane play.

With a relatively high rev rate, I feel that oil patterns can light up a like a Christmas tree sometimes. Meaning, when you hit dry boards, you'll really know it. Sometimes that helps. Sometimes it can work against you. The trick is to make it work for you more often. ^_^
Gyoza - to answer your first question - both.

It is still a work in progress (I believe many people are comparing me/my results to the bowler I was/used to be one handed).

I am still working on the release consistency - which is a HANDful as you know.

I am now working also on getting equipment to match up to the rev dominant style ( As a one hander I was speed dominant - and I used a wrist support most of the time to control the (excessive) length of the ball).

Currently, progress is slow and frustrating at times. The late league is particularly a big problem - as the heads are burnt and soon the entire lane. (Just got the Hammer plastic ball drilled up to use as a strike ball!)

Like you - getting enough tilt is a problem. I am estimating my tilt at about 0 degrees.

But as you know when you actually get the shot right, the results/reaction at the pins is pleasing indeed. I still hope that I can make many of those shots in a row - in time :)

That's why I am here seeking out any info that I can get.
"You see only what you look for; you recognize only what you know"

There are many worlds out there. Some of them can be accessed through reading. Encourage reading - T.A. Sankar

http://www.tasankar.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
gyoza
Member
Member
Posts: 322
Joined: February 22nd, 2011, 3:58 pm

Re: More Axis Rotation for More Skid?

Post by gyoza »

Dax, remember the phases of developing a new skill.

1. Unconscious incompetence. You're happy because you don't know any better.
2. Conscious incompetence. You might be frustrated because now you're aware of what you don't know!
3. Conscious competence. With focus and effort, you can execute the skill.
4. Unconscious competence. You just think it and it happens. Back to being happy. ^_^

Yeah, a plastic ball is good. A urethane ball is the next logical step. Layouts with larger VAL angles (lower pin) and either longer (5"+) or shorter (1.75"-) pin distances can help control the downlane reaction. Sometimes something like a stronger solid ball can even control the reaction because it will want dig in early and smooth out. (Reminds me of Belmonte using a Nano at the US Open finals.)
Post Reply