Ball Loft

Questions about coaching?

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Trackfan87
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Posts: 16
Joined: February 9th, 2013, 5:56 am
THS Average: 210
Speed: 17.5 mph overall
Rev Rate: 425
Heavy Oil Ball: 300 T
Medium Oil Ball: 503 C
Light Oil Ball: 300 A
Preferred Company: Track

Ball Loft

Post by Trackfan87 »

I have been trying to learn how to loft the ball from watching videos on Youtube. I think it is going well but I won't be certain until I get some video this weekend.

I'm basically trying to determine when i should I loft the ball and when I need to set the ball down earlier. I typically set the ball down at the foul line. Should ball loft be used as a tool to help with carry? On certain patterns is it a good idea to loft the ball right out of the gate? I am a fairly balanced bowler but I do have a fairly high rev rate. I feel like I'm a little rev dominant over my ball speed of 17.5 mph @ 400-450 rpm and I feel it's been very helpful using loft to get the ball down the lane and it has helped me to play straighter up the lane paired with a wonderful new ball in the Track 300A. In retrospect I've had some great games lately lofting the ball as well as some not so great games and I think that differentiation comes from not knowing when to make these changes.

The KISS theory is lost on me.

I have been told countless times that my biggest weakness as a bower is that I think too much. I think it's not that I think too much but that I don't truly know what I'm doing at times or even why I'm doing something. I do not feel my 210 average is a good representation of my skill level and before next season I would like to simplify my game. This post accompanies the one I created in relation to hand positions. I felt it may help others to have the two topics separated.
Average ball speed is 17.5 mph overall and approximate rev rate is 400-450 rpm.
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kajmk
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Re: Ball Loft

Post by kajmk »

A few tidbits and comments to start the ball rolling.

Impressive metrics, but do establish your Axis Rotation and Axis Tilts.
Explore a performance fit to optimize your performance. Ask folks like kelleytehuna, elgavachon, JohnP (off the top of my head). Become well versed in surface adjustments and equipment that complements your physical game. Sometimes less is more and fine tuning your arsenal can help in that regard. The Mo and Friends is a good spot to ask, though they do peruse the whole forum. Note that I've only mentioned a few and do not mean by MY IGNORANCE to slight anyone or say who is better etc. I do know that they do know their stuff!

Loft is very definitely an adjustment tool.
Some bowlers do it naturally by virtue of their posture at release time, for example Mika K.
It's very important that the launch angle be as parallel to the lane as possible, NOT UP, NOT DOWN.
It's important that the distance be as consistent as possible.

Essentially, Loft changes the time and distance that your ball is touching the lane surface.
It is one tool in the box of physical adjustments. It can be used alone or in combination with other adjustments.
Picture Robert Smith Lofting over the gutter cap and channel, Carmen Salvino bringing both hands up to his cheeks in amazement! Mega Revs, Fried Heads, No more room to Move, using Sarge Easter Grip to curtail RPMs :o :o :o

Having a good flat spot can facilitate proper loft.
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... _Flat_spot" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Excerpt from a USBC Coaching Manual
Capture.JPG
I feel like I'm a little rev dominant over my ball speed of 17.5 mph @ 400-450 rpm
Indeed!
Capture 2.JPG
I'd encourage and explore adding a bit of versatility to your physical game if possible.
For example release modifications, using all the fingers to fine tune your ball reaction,
see "Finger Dancing" - http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/tip11.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tweaks to: RPM rate, AXIS TILT, AXIS ROTATION

Fred Borden used the term: Think Circle or Engineering Zone as the settee area, back on the seats as being the place where you plan and think.
Indeed failing to plan is planning to fail, but there is a time and place to do that.
So it's not the thinking, its the when. It's also important not to expect perfection, step outside your ego and speak to yourself as you might speak to a friend or a loved one.
Once you set up on the approach and do your pre-shot routine, unclench your brain and trust the force so to speak or as one old timer told me after observing the smoke coming out of my ears - 'just remember this, start to think, start to stink!"
After the ball rolls into the the pit, having observed it while in your POST THE SHOT now I'm posing for the Wheaties Box position, do a quick evaluation of how you implemented your plan.

A bit more on thinking:

Read and view these links and related links (right brain/left brain stuff).
Thinking through physical moves is something you do while learning and drilling to some extent, it is often coupled with slooooooooooow motion movement. There are a lot of things that can be discovered and learned via human slo-mo

You must allow the proper part of your brain to rule at the proper time to perform at your peak. Thinking brain, plans, quantifies etc, Motor Skills part performs physical action.
When the thinking brain buds in during the ACT, your performance plummets.
Render unto Right Brain the things that are Right Brained and to Left Brain, the things that are Left Brained, or else you will be LEFT RIGHT OUT!! ;)

If an athlete thought about technique while doing the high hurdles he might be picking splinters out of his ___ ;)

http://www.pbs.org/saf/1206/segments/1206-2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.pbs.org/saf/1206/resources/resources-2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

p.s. averages and scores are all relative to the field and the conditions and the level of competition. To achieve your potential, seek out an instructor/coach in your area.
Do your research and find out who has helped bowlers at your level get to the next level.

p.p.s. ask via the forum about instructors to work with in your neck of the woods

I hope this blurb proves to be helpful.
Shoving my ego in the closet, I welcome corrections if need be.

Enjoy your journey ...
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May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
Trackfan87
Member
Member
Posts: 16
Joined: February 9th, 2013, 5:56 am
THS Average: 210
Speed: 17.5 mph overall
Rev Rate: 425
Heavy Oil Ball: 300 T
Medium Oil Ball: 503 C
Light Oil Ball: 300 A
Preferred Company: Track

Re: Ball Loft

Post by Trackfan87 »

I think it should be noted that ball speed of 17.5 mph is overall and not the speed at the time of release so hopefully that means I'm slightly more balanced than the chart implies in regards to rev rate and speed.

I will try to work more with my own "finger dancing" and I will continue to use loft as an adjustment tool. Is it best to make one adjustment at a time or are there times where a combination of adjustments can be made together?
Average ball speed is 17.5 mph overall and approximate rev rate is 400-450 rpm.
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kajmk
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Re: Ball Loft

Post by kajmk »

Ratzzzzzzzzzz, I lost the reply I was writing.

First of all, I should have asked you if the speed was off the hand. My oversight :oops:
My unscientific understanding is that you can figure the off the hand speed to be 2 to 2.5 mph faster. Given that, you are considered "matched" - according to the experts that created the chart.

Wayback when, I used to be a computer programmer analyst.
That's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayback!
Mr Peabody and Sherman and the WABAC machine.JPG
If I was debugging a program, I'd be inclined to make one change at a time and observe the change. Coupling changes carries the burden of whether or not all the changes were really necessary and if the changes did not work, one is not sure if it were due to A or B or ...

Of course this is a function of the skill set and perception of the person.
My inclination is to say make 1 change at a time, sort of the KISS principle.

"I do one thing at a time. I do it very well. And then I move on." --- Major Charles Emerson Winchester III
Winchester.JPG
Cuing the body

I threw this in as a seed for your contemplation.

Bill Hall has written of using different set ups in the stance as cues to the body. There is at least one article in BTM and Richard Shockley used Bill's method in an article in the now defunct Bowling Magazine.
Look for Danny Wiseman at viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7117&p=56294&hilit=wiseman#p56294" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Consider Danny Wiseman and Norm Duke. They have both utilized various starting positions.
Look at Lesson #2: Stance & Push Away
on Next Level Bowling (thats 6 free lessons with Norm Duke)
http://www.nextlevelbowling.com/index.p" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... Itemid=177

I hope this proves to be helpful.

Let me know if you think otherwise.

Always use your own good sense and judgement ...

Remember the immortal words
'Who ya gonna believe, me, or your eyes?"
Groucho_Marx.jpg
p.s. whats the significance of the screen name / id??

Just wondering ...
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May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
Trackfan87
Member
Member
Posts: 16
Joined: February 9th, 2013, 5:56 am
THS Average: 210
Speed: 17.5 mph overall
Rev Rate: 425
Heavy Oil Ball: 300 T
Medium Oil Ball: 503 C
Light Oil Ball: 300 A
Preferred Company: Track

Re: Ball Loft

Post by Trackfan87 »

I enjoyed every minute of next level bowling when I watched it for the first time this summer.

Today's Observations

I thought that loft would alter my line more. However the few feet I lofted the ball simply pushed my break point down the lane. It did not so much alter my line as it did my ball motion. I was unable to successfully loft the ball more than 4 or 5 feet without throwing the ball horribly. However, I was met with great success otherwise.

I did a little bit of "finger dancing" as well. I was met with the 10 pin epidemic on the inside part of the lane. I reached an inch or so with my index finger and carried well until the ball started hooking in the mid lane. The oiler got stuck in the pit a lane prior to mine. I didn't have the best shot today but I made the best of it. It was just a little goofy. I tried moving my index finger and ring finger inside when I started to lose the mid lane but I just couldn't get the ball to hold and I didn't throw the ball real great either. I felt like I was losing the ball in my back swing.

---------------------- > and because of my frustration.....

I was trying to get through a practice session without changing my hand position. I must say, it is by no means a small adjustment when I change my hand position but I couldn't carry to save my life. I went from 12 o'clock to 10-11 o'clock, moved 8 boards left with the 300 A and put ten in the pit my last 6 frames. I was standing in the same place with the 503 C a frame prior. The move was an adjustment from a game prior when I was still throwing the 300 A.

I find myself going inside when the lanes break down and not having a way to score when I do. This is either a skill gap or an equipment gap. More than likely a combination of both but rather frustrating none the less. My thoughts were a urethane and a 706 A (or an 811 CT). I started a new job where I took less money to spend more time with my family and my 300 T and 503 C probably need to be drilled differently. I bought them used and didn't really change the layouts for me.

My layouts can be viewed here ----> viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7367" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In regards to my username.

My first real reactive was a Track Triton Heat. My first and second 300 were with a Track Threat and every one since had Track stamped on it. I have thrown and owned at least one ball from all of the other big names. I really liked a Lane 1 Silver Diamond and a Roto Grip Mercury I had but other than that I have not cared for much else. I have done well with Track and I have been told that Track makes their equipment for higher rev players. Whether or not that's true I have no idea but I'm still a fan none the less. ;)
Average ball speed is 17.5 mph overall and approximate rev rate is 400-450 rpm.
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kajmk
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Re: Ball Loft

Post by kajmk »

My standard caveat applies.
Trust but verify.
Ask some of the experts on the forum that may not have replied!
I'd be interested in dissent or augmentation or more information too.
I am not a expert nor do I remember as well as I'd like too.
I do not have the best of eyes either!
My primary concern is your progress and welfare. (sounds corny doesn't it?)

Before I go on, here is another chart from USBC.
USBC Chart x.JPG
I enjoyed every minute of next level bowling when I watched it for the first time this summer.
Glad you found it an liked it, more people should.
What you see there is probably the product of more than a few minds.
Someone like Gary Parsons guruU2 would know more than I, among other things, the man is an accomplished bowling historian. It is not by accident he was dubbed the Guru many moons ago. I see Dick Ritger, John Fantini, and Bill Hall's influence in those video too.
Today's Observations

I thought that loft would alter my line more. However the few feet I lofted the ball simply pushed my break point down the lane. It did not so much alter my line as it did my ball motion. I was unable to successfully loft the ball more than 4 or 5 feet without throwing the ball horribly. However, I was met with great success otherwise.

Initial take -
Does not sound surprising ...
Balls not expending energy as soon ...
Loft may also impact hand action and speed and launch trajectory ...
As far as mastering distances (loft control)
things take time, this does not mean that is your cap forever ...
Weight Lifters work their way up don't they?

Rome was not built in a day

There is a practice method using a towel on the lane surface, the goal being to clear the towel.
Remember, trajectory is very important, land the ball like an aircraft who's trays and tables are not yet in the upright stored away position!


If I've not suggested this reading material:


I firmly believe in diversified sources for a variety of reasons: content and philosophies, methods, communication styles and so forth. This is one reason I've added to the reference content on the wiki

My Favorite and to me the best treatise on the game
Par Bowling, the challenge by Thomas C. Kouros, see reviews on this forum
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... itten_Word" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
do not be deceived by the paucity of reviews here. Bowlers are not regarded as readers ergo bowling material is all but invisible in brick and mortar venues. I was told they do not sell and this was before forums. Harumph!
There are more review on amazon. Tom's book is an encyclopedic treatment of the sport of bowling. As Grace Slick sang, "feed your head"

Smooth Landing, parts 1 and 2 by Ron Clifton
http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/tip28.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/tip29.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Flat Spot - wiki - http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... _Flat_spot" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How to control Ball Loft by Rich Carruba "WebVersity"
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... _Flat_spot" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[youtube]I did a little bit of "finger dancing" as well. I was met with the 10 pin epidemic on the inside part of the lane. I reached an inch or so with my index finger and carried well until the ball started hooking in the mid lane. The oiler got stuck in the pit a lane prior to mine. I didn't have the best shot today but I made the best of it. It was just a little goofy. I tried moving my index finger and ring finger inside when I started to lose the mid lane but I just couldn't get the ball to hold and I didn't throw the ball real great either. I felt like I was losing the ball in my back swing.[/youtube]

That is what experimentation is for! You've changed the roll of the ball, EXCELLANT.

Don't go into sensory or mental overload though. Know your limits and in time expand them.
Keep it FUN, do not practice to exhaustion in any sense, body, thought, or emotion,as that is counterproductive and may inhibit your inclination to learn. Remember, you are human with all of it's frailties. Sharpen the sword yes, but don't wer it down to a nub in a day.

Don't try to be like George Malley! :)
Travolta.JPG
My first real reactive was a Track Triton Heat. My first and second 300 were with a Track Threat and every one since had Track stamped on it. I have thrown and owned at least one ball from all of the other big names. I really liked a Lane 1 Silver Diamond and a Roto Grip Mercury I had but other than that I have not cared for much else. I have done well with Track and I have been told that Track makes their equipment for higher rev players. Whether or not that's true I have no idea but I'm still a fan none the less. ;)


Bonnie: George Malley! You learned the Portuguese language in 20 minutes?
George Malley: Not all of it.


1:02 in ... or thereabouts :)

[youtube][/youtube]



When you do that, OBSERVE ball transition, the roll through the pins, how the pins dance, the sound of the pins etc. You are developing FEEL. The axiom, "there is a time and place for everything" I think applies here. Do not discard it, make notes, try the same thing with different balls etc

---------------------- > and because of my frustration.....

I was trying to get through a practice session without changing my hand position. I must say, it is by no means a small adjustment when I change my hand position but I couldn't carry to save my life. I went from 12 o'clock to 10-11 o'clock, moved 8 boards left with the 300 A and put ten in the pit my last 6 frames. I was standing in the same place with the 503 C a frame prior. The move was an adjustment from a game prior when I was still throwing the 300 A.
Again, EXCELLENT, you are observing cause and effect. Make notes audio and textual
You are expanding your adaptive range.
Over on the USBC site under coaching, you will find a set of very short videos, some featuring Chris Barnes, I suggest you take a look and get what you may. There are a few that you may find helpful

How do you know what your limits are or how to expand them until you find them and endeavor to push forward?
I find myself going inside when the lanes break down and not having a way to score when I do. This is either a skill gap or an equipment gap. More than likely a combination of both but rather frustrating none the less. My thoughts were a urethane and a 706 A (or an 811 CT). I started a new job where I took less money to spend more time with my family and my 300 T and 503 C probably need to be drilled differently. I bought them used and didn't really change the layouts for me.
Pay attention to the phases of Ball motion, the transitions. Also consider hitting the pocket a bit higher as you move inside if you are seeing too much deflection. WATCH THE BALL MEANDER THROUGH THE PINS! Today's goal is split the 8-9 according to folks like Mo an he IS and EXPERT as well as INNOVATOR.

My layouts can be viewed here ----> viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7367
This is a huge KNOWLEDGE GAP for me at this time. I need to SHUT UP and Learn from some of the folks that so generously share their knowledge here.
In regards to my username.
My first real reactive was a Track Triton Heat. My first and second 300 were with a Track Threat and every one since had Track stamped on it. I have thrown and owned at least one ball from all of the other big names. I really liked a Lane 1 Silver Diamond and a Roto Grip Mercury I had but other than that I have not cared for much else. I have done well with Track and I have been told that Track makes their equipment for higher rev players. Whether or not that's true I have no idea but I'm still a fan none the less. ;)
The Triton Series was a nice set, I actually have a THREAT in my closet. I've not bowled in way too many years and that ball is nary a scrtach on it.
Steve(?) Hoskins comes to mind as a Track Man and he can torque a ball with the best. Phil Cardinale was with Track fro a while, but I think he may have moved on by the Triton series. Gary Parsons and others would know. Sidebar question. What do you think of their nomenclature?
As noted, that ball speed in your signature is via measurment down the lane and not off the hand, ergo you may be at 19 - 19.5 off the hand, making you a "matched" shooter.

Bye bye!
Bye bye.JPG
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May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
kboveington
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Posts: 342
Joined: May 24th, 2013, 8:39 am
THS Average: 225
Positive Axis Point: 5 7/16 right ⅜ down
Speed: 20-21 mph at foul line
Rev Rate: 550
Axis Tilt: 5
Axis Rotation: 55
Medium Oil Ball: storm IQ tour pearl
Light Oil Ball: rotogrip scream
Preferred Company: storm/roto grip
Location: Cleveland Ohio

Re: Ball Loft

Post by kboveington »

So much good information and feedback from kajmk! I figured id throw my 2 cents in as a rev dominant player. For those that don't know I am a converted 2 hander and went from 280 revs. To approx. 550. With a ball speed at 20-21 off hand so I am slightly rev dom. As well. As I got better I just assumed with the added rev rate I needed to play inside and try and make that huge 30 board banana ball hook work. But the more I played inside I would see over under conditions and my ball deflected too far left leaving many 9 pins, wrap tens, and throwing messengers in front and behind the ten pin. *frustrating right?* after a good half a season I began to try and play new parts of the lane with different equipment and experimented with different hand positions *different àxis rotation * and found the best look for me was up 12-15 at the arrows *the big boy down and in* using some loft to help me get down the lane, along with more ball speed to help hold line, along with taking some axis rotation off to approximately 30-45 degrees to help the pins carry straighter back instead of mixing side to side. I throw a lot of track stuff myself. In league I have found 811a 505a 503c, and 300c to be effective for me. Another suggestion would be a higher tilt release to help the ball get down the lane and retain more energy. Most of tracks equipment is asymmetric balls *most are weaker asymmetric * after experimenting on the lanes and you still find yourself having the best look way inside I would encourage you to get with your pro shop operator or coach and find a ball and drill that best suites the desired line or the line you end up needing to play. Me personally I like medium to weak pearl symmetricals with a layout that will give me the length I need and an aggressive move on the back to help with carry from way inside. Asymmetrical ball tend to want to rev up too soon thus burning out too early and its usually apparent when the ball gets to the pins and hits like a marshmallow! Btw I plan on getting the 503a. Ill let you know how it rolls. Hope I was helpful good luck next year!
Make spares make cut, miss spares miss cut. " Bill O'Neil "
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