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 Post subject: Follow Thru Left Of The Face?
 Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:13 am Post Number: #1 Post
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What is it that power players are doing in their swings/deliveries that causes them to follow to the left of their face?

Chris Barnes, Sean RAsh, Dom Barrett, Fagan, even Belmo, when he is deep deep inside. They all follow thru to the left of their head's. Of course they don't end up that way, otherwise they would hit themselves in the face.

But I don't believe they deliberately follow thru in that direction. Rather, something they are doing as part of their delivery influences their armswing to go to the left of their heads.

Who can tell me what it is?

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 Post subject: Re: Follow Thru Left Of The Face?
 Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:35 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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I moved you request to the discussion forum for response from the community. It will be a few days before I have time to respond.

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 Post subject: Re: Follow Thru Left Of The Face?
 Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:18 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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My thoughts -- Their bowling side shoulder is dropped, bringing their head toward that side. So their swing slot goes to the other side of their head in the follow through. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Follow Thru Left Of The Face?
 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:10 am Post Number: #4 Post
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I had not thought of that and it sort of makes sense. The big misgiving I have w/ that is that if you watch Fagan especially, his follow thru goes towards the left gutter. If it were just a lowering of the shoulder thing, his follow thru would still be towards the head pin. I am sure that the dropping of the shoulder is a big contributor to the motion. But I have to believe there is more to it than the shoulder.

I think this is an important concept. So many of the top players do this, I simply must know what is going on w/ this.

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 Post subject: Re: Follow Thru Left Of The Face?
 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:04 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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Michael Fagan imo is not a pro bowler to emulate. He does what works for him, he puts a ton of revs and rotation on the ball, he has a ridiculously high backswing and he loops his backswing in a figure 8 path and probably has to follow through to the left gutter to keep from throwing the ball into the right gutter. Also his grip is not the norm, he uses the sargeaster grip. Just way to many parts of his game that stray from normal teachings. I realize that there are other bowlers that do follow through to the left, Wes Malot is another one. He also loops his backswing. I was just checking out a Chris Barnes slow mo video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MVk1ikJJXM he has a very striaght backswing and his follow through is barely to the left of his head but like JohnP said that is probably because his head is right of the ball at release. Look closer at the backswing of the left of the head follow through bowlers. I'm thinking that the figure 8 pattern to there swing might be a common.

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 Post subject: Re: Follow Thru Left Of The Face?
 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:18 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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I think it all comes down to:

Keeping the elbow close to the body
When you watch these pro bowlers from the front you can see that they only turn their wrist and thus have the elbow directly behind or even on the left side of the ball for right handers. This does not change during the release.

This in combination with enough space creation (Tilting to the ball side) keeps the ball on the inside of the head and creates a swing slot which is not perpendicular to the ground, but drawn towards the body. So if the bowler follows through the way he swung he will naturally hit some teeth (Probably his own), if he bends his arm, or will even touch his left shoulder if he keeps his arm straight.

Now I think some of the guys are just good enough to combine the above said with an intended movement to the left after the thumb left the ball. Good for them!

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 Post subject: Re: Follow Thru Left Of The Face?
 Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:14 am Post Number: #7 Post
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You are right, I wouldn't want to emulate Fagan. I couldn't do what he does. But Rash, Barnes, Barrett, Ciminelli they are good models. The left follow thru is very apparent when seeing them play the right side of the lane (reverse it for Ciminelli).

Jim Merrell left an excellent description of how Fagan's hand action contributes to the follow thru direction here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6958

Looking at the videos again, I can also see how body lean is a big contributor as well.

Great discussion. I have only recently become aware of the idea that most professionals do not do any body motion by accident. So when I see many pros making the same kind of motion, it becomes something that I want to know why they do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Follow Thru Left Of The Face?
 Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:59 am Post Number: #8 Post
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When I wrote the article on downswing angle, it was revealing to many people on the actual movement of elite players' swing motion.

In my effort to promote DYDS, and the creation of extra swing slot space, you begin to see more and more players with excellent lateral spine tilt follow-through more to the inside. 2-handed players are further inside....

See an example in DV8 Pro Staffer Joonas Jähi
http://dv8bowling.com/uploads/cache/ima ... 0_s_c1.jpg

You can see the downswing angles of Tommy Jones and Jason Couch in the article. This should help you understand why.

http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/sto ... imay12.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Follow Thru Left Of The Face?
 Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:06 am Post Number: #9 Post
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Joe, I love your BTM articles and I am honored to have you posting here.

Would you say then that this type of follow thru that most bowlers should strive for? Provided the bowler does not physically force the follow thru in that direction?

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 Post subject: Re: Follow Thru Left Of The Face?
 Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:23 am Post Number: #10 Post
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The follow-through is a function of the swing movement. Ideally, added swing slot space facilitated with more lateral spine tilt, will yield an increased downswing angle in addition to the ball being further inside as discussed.

The ability to create this space is also related to core health and fitness levels of an athlete. There is a correlation with age as well. But, with my DYDS (Drop Your Damn Shoulder) group, I have both young and old working on DYDS. This week a 70 year old bowler shot 700 while excitingly working on DYDS.

So, as DYDS and increased lateral spine tilt become more of the norm, this should also see more players following-through more to the inside of the face. It allows more efficient energy transfer from body to the bowling ball as well as more balance at the line. Everyone sees more ball motion as well when the drop their damn shoulder.

To answer finally :D

Yes, via more lateral spine tilt, this is a follow-through that players should strive for....but, it has to be a natural function of more swing slot space creation and lateral spine tilt.

If anyone want this, they need to be sure to also begin a conditioning routine where you work the entire core. Cross crawls, planks, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Follow Thru Left Of The Face?
 Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:37 am Post Number: #11 Post
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I got a question to bring this thread back from the dead... I do the same thing with my follow through, however my game... For lack of a more appropriate word.... SUCKS!!!!!!!

To all the coaches out there, is there any other, perhaps, non fundamentally sound reason why i have done this for yrs. I hope to get a video up, but my pc skills are perhaps even short of my bowling fundamentals, hard to believe. So i will need help figuring out how to post a good vid of my game from the proposed angles hopefully from the pops.

But to elaborate... Ive always been told that i have such a smooth delivery, with great fundamentals, problem is, is that those comments are coming from those in my non sanctioned "fun" church league bowlers, that throw plastic. (not bashing, just being realistic)


In my honest opinion the few things i feel i do averagely, is my timing, just went back from 5 to 4 steps this week, in desperate measure to work my way out of a season long slump. I never had a hard time getting the ball started with the movement of my right foot, (right handed).
And, well thats about it for the positives.... Although its funny that i have NO PROBLEM at all getting the ball well over my shoulderin my backswing, infact i never even realized how high i had it, which isnt neccessarily good, but it brings me to my next point.... With that said, my ball speed is SLOOOOW. 12.8-13.3 on the monitors average. And thats even after dropping from 15 to 14lbs.


Im 30 yrs old, and humbly, very athletic, although short in stature at 5' 7". But still, i feel i should have no real problem generating at least 2 more mphs downlane, with 15lbs equipment, nonetheless dropping weight just to see the speed i had then gained quickly vanishedback to the exact speed as with the older weight. People have said that im not using my body, i.e. Legs specifically. And theyre 100% correct. Is that just a matter of really pushing into my slide step with all the force from my legs?

Im sorry, i really shouldve started a new thread, but i wanted to touch upon the follow thru that was being talked about here.

P.s. I cant really even say its a full follow through, its more like im doing something that has forced my muscle memory to sort of short arm it, similar to Stuart "BEEFCAKE" Williams, but maybe a little bit higher. And lets not forget, my arm ends up about 1 foot away from my left shoulder, with my thumb facing 10:00 position and other fingers at around 11:00

If any one can help before i can provide a video, please do.... Im desperate. My team used to love me :(

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 Post subject: Re: Follow Thru Left Of The Face?
 Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:37 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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Well, without a video all of the following are shots into the dark, but non the less here I go :) :

If amateurs like me follow through to the left it's usually a sign of a pulled shot that will go inside of the intended target. What reasons might this have?

Chicken winging comes to mind. Meaning that you turn your whole arm instead of just the wrist, so that your elbow points to the side. Try "giving blood" to the pins by pointing the crook of the arm towards your target.

Another thing is the over rotation of the torso. This leads to the right shoulder being in front of the left shoulder or just too far forward and thus alters the swingpath significantly. I do that some times and it's hard for me to feel it.

Regarding your ball speed: Im struggeling with the same problem. For me it's the power step or lack there of. A lot of amateurs at the centers I bowl in walk the approach exactly opposite to what the pros do. The start with small steps and end with bigger ones.
What helped me a great deal is mentaly saying "Slow slow, quick quick, slide" and making the slow steps (first two in a five step approach) normal walking distance, while making the next two into very short steps. Chris barnes demonstrates this very good nowadays.
This leads to a better power step for me and increases my ballspeed by 2 mph if done right.

A low stu-like follow through is no problem in my oppinion as long as you don't slow down during your release, which would kill some of your speed.

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 Post subject: Re: Follow Thru Left Of The Face?
 Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:02 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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A low stu-like follow through is no problem in my oppinion as long as you don't slow down during your release, which would kill some of your speed


Haha,, i believe thats actually the problem. I could never tell, but others that i trust have told me that im almost actually decelerating at the release. Which to me sounds very much impossible to do, due to gravity being a constant. But im sure what they mean is that im not accelerating through the ball, just as you had alluded to.

All in all though thanks so much for the quick and detailed reply.

Cmon guys, coaches, hobbyists, i need all the help i can get, and i will sooner than later repay u with a video of my shear beauty on the lanes, lol. Thats a promise. But first i need more more more.

Sean

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 Post subject: Re: Follow Thru Left Of The Face?
 Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:37 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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BAll speed is related to foot speed and arc lenght of your swing. If your backswing is too low, you will have low speed. If your foot step cadence is too slow, you will have slow speed. If you stand too close to the foul line as you set up, you will have too slow speed.

Do a youtube search for CHris Warren PBA, from recent years. Watch how he runs, I mean runs to the line. This kind of foot speed is not for everyone. But chris weighs 120 pounds. Throws a 16 pound ball. Look at how fast his ball goes down the lane. OLder videos of chris may not be relevant because he was throwing Urethane equipment and had to throw it slower. But his footwork was still super fast.

Walter ray scoots WAY up on the approach when he is playing the deep inside line and wants to throw slower.

The Chickenwing mentioned above will kill speed.

A broken wrist will kill speed.

A follow thru that is not complete will kill speed.

Leaning over too far at the waist can kill speed.

Someone before mentioned foot work timing. Slow slow fast fast fast. Watch how Chris does this. Or Ryan Shaffer PBA.

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 Post subject: Re: Follow Thru Left Of The Face?
 Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:56 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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Strimmed wrote:
Haha,, i believe thats actually the problem. I could never tell, but others that i trust have told me that im almost actually decelerating at the release. Which to me sounds very much impossible to do, due to gravity being a constant. But im sure what they mean is that im not accelerating through the ball, just as you had alluded to.



Well, it might even be, that you decelerate.
Sure, gravity is an acceleration constant, but we're still all human. Maybe subconciously you initiate your low follow through during your release. It would not take much muscle to slow down. Not enough to notice yourself anyhow.

I recommand you try to push the ball towards the pins and a long, low follow through. By "low" in this case I don't mean cut it short, but try to stay low. Like trying to pick up a small teepee one foot before the foul line and one a small teepee one foot behind the foul line. After that the ball should be gone and it doesn't matter if you decelerate from that point on.

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