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 Post subject: Female, 140 avg, dumps the ball. What to do?
 Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 2:45 am Post Number: #1 Post
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A female of my club has been stuck at 130-150 for 3 years, and it feels like getting a bit more power in the ball is a key. She is 18 now, throws 14lbs, 18-20km/h, around 45 deg axis tilt, 45 deg axis rotation. When not perfectly high flush, seeing pocket 5s, 5-7s and 5-10s isn't rare. To make it worse, our home pattern in the Norwegian National League is 44 feet of heavy oil forcing me with my 23km/h 400rpm ball to play outside 20, which is rare with my low tilt low rotation heavy roll.

Now, at release, even if she stays half way between behind and above the ball shortly before release, the ball seems to be dumped down on the lane, which alone kills power. It also bounces, and we don't have bouncy heads.

My initial thought was grabbing due to too large thumb hole, but when she demonstrated by putting one more 3/4 white in and couldn't even get her thumb in, I was perplexed... Why would the thumb exit so fast, and the fingers so soon after?

I am fishing here, any ideas at all: Grip/drilling, ball weight, drills that can help this or prove more clearly what's wrong so I can go from there. I think she is feeling fed up with being stuck while her friends race up the score boards while she hasn't moved an inch in years.

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speed: 15 at GS96/Qubica sensors
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 Post subject: Re: Female, 140 avg, dumps the ball. What to do?
 Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 4:10 am Post Number: #2 Post
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Could be extremely late timing making the downswing arc too steep.
Tough to say without seeing it.

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 Post subject: Re: Female, 140 avg, dumps the ball. What to do?
 Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 5:29 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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A word on tape. White tape is thicker and provides more friction due to its topography.
Black tape is thinner and smooth. You can try a combination.
You can also try other types of that are thinner yet, for example a tape like a painter's tape or 3m tape those thinner tapes give you more variability.
I learned that from Leila Wagner at an AMF center opening many years ago.
Then there is always Ron C's Magic Carpet tape.

Like Eric said, a video would make diagnosis easier.

Cheers.

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 Post subject: Re: Female, 140 avg, dumps the ball. What to do?
 Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 6:01 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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If the thumb points down too early it could also cause the ball to drop. Have someone lend her a wrist brace or device and check to see if she still is dropping the ball. If she still does then maybe it's a timing issue like Eric says or a grip issue. A side video would greatly simplify this diagnosis.

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 Post subject: Re: Female, 140 avg, dumps the ball. What to do?
 Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 9:48 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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What size was the white tape?

1" tape in a small thumbhole can make it too small on the sides of the thumb while still not tight enough from front to back.
A properly shaped thumbhole is important to a good release. Just my 2 cents.

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 Post subject: Re: Female, 140 avg, dumps the ball. What to do?
 Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 10:50 am Post Number: #6 Post
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3/4 tape, 1" and 1/2 white is rather rare in northern Norway

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pap: 3 1/2" right 1 1/2" up
speed: 15 at GS96/Qubica sensors
rev rate: 400
axis rotation: 15°
axis tilt: very close to 0°

years bowling: 10
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high game: 290
high series: 756


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 Post subject: Re: Female, 140 avg, dumps the ball. What to do?
 Posted: Thu May 11, 2017 8:08 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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She should have her grip checked by a professional pso. Also few hours of training with a good coach would be the best money spent for a while. As other people have said here, it is not possible to give any advice without seeing the actual situation.

But what comes for the scores. Does she have a spare ball? Give her one if not and just by practising that alone the avg will step up very fast.

With many years of active bowling. Especially if she doesnt have great grip and still no injuries, callouses, pain etc. She must have some obvious fault/habit that she has adapted for her style to throw the ball easier and what is preventing her to throw more constantly. Not a problem for a good coach to fix easily. In any case she should start practising with some foul line drills at first to get the feeling of a clean relaxed swing and release.

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 Post subject: Re: Female, 140 avg, dumps the ball. What to do?
 Posted: Fri May 12, 2017 4:39 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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Tell her to try applying a little pressure with the base (not the tip) of her thumb. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Female, 140 avg, dumps the ball. What to do?
 Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:44 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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JohnP wrote:
Tell her to try applying a little pressure with the base (not the tip) of her thumb. -- JohnP

May I ask what this should achieve? Me as a coach in training (still working on the 45hrs of practice I need) would like to know, to see what should happen and what actually happens.

VLe wrote:
She should have her grip checked by a professional pso. Also few hours of training with a good coach would be the best money spent for a while. As other people have said here, it is not possible to give any advice without seeing the actual situation.

But what comes for the scores. Does she have a spare ball? Give her one if not and just by practising that alone the avg will step up very fast.

With many years of active bowling. Especially if she doesnt have great grip and still no injuries, callouses, pain etc. She must have some obvious fault/habit that she has adapted for her style to throw the ball easier and what is preventing her to throw more constantly. Not a problem for a good coach to fix easily. In any case she should start practising with some foul line drills at first to get the feeling of a clean relaxed swing and release.

The closest PSO is 1.5hrs away, you know that from our chats on Facebook, VLe. So if she is getting new equipment, I will drag her there, but not just to redrill what she got, as she has only old and used redrilled stuff currently. I will talk to her about this, as she is moving to another city, but might keep bowling. If she does, I will try to pressure her to get a couple of new balls and a plug and redrill on her spare ball, to keep all the same.

I think either her grip isn't good enough, or it is good enough, but changes to thumb pitch for instance can be done to change her release and such. As you normally would use fwd/rev thumb pitch.

Closest coach except me is the PSO 1.5hrs away, he is also in training, we went to the same ETBF level 1 course.

I got one video of her, it is swing/pendulum training, but it shows exactly what I now think is her main problem: Late timing, as one you also told me it probably was.

She uses 4 steps, but gets the ball into motion only in the second step. I wonder if I should just get her to practice with 5 steps this summer, and get the ball started in 2nd step on 5 steps. That would fix her timing issue, and get her to 5 steps so it is easier to keep the timing correct. And easier for me to coach her in the future.


Here you can also see that she bends her elbow in the top of the swing. Had it been at 45 degrees on the way down, it would have been a really good place to get revs, but now it serves as an issue that almost rips the ball straight down off her hand at release.

This I am aware of, and we are working on it by using towel release practice. One game with the towel seems to keep it away for around 3 games after it, so getting her to do that as well as release drills and 5 step drills could get her a LONG way rev-wise.

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pap: 3 1/2" right 1 1/2" up
speed: 15 at GS96/Qubica sensors
rev rate: 400
axis rotation: 15°
axis tilt: very close to 0°

years bowling: 10
league average: 175
high game: 290
high series: 756


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 Post subject: Re: Female, 140 avg, dumps the ball. What to do?
 Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 3:49 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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Quote:
May I ask what this should achieve? Me as a coach in training (still working on the 45hrs of practice I need) would like to know, to see what should happen and what actually happens.


A little pressure is needed to keep the ball on the thumb. We emphasize reducing pressure, but if enough pressure isn't used the ball will slip off. But that pressure needs to be applied by the base of the thumb to avoid "knuckling". After looking at the video I doubt too little pressure is her problem, but I'd still ask her to try adding more. You may have to reduce the reverse pitch in the thumb hole, or increase forward if she's 0 or forward now. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Female, 140 avg, dumps the ball. What to do?
 Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 8:56 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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Ok, I see what you mean, you want her to roll the ball vs hitting up on it. She doesn't look that bad, the first thing I would do is move her up about one foot on the approach to see if she can end up sliding closer to the foul line. She ends up too far away from the line and that alone may force her try to throw it upwards. Have you tried isolating her release with a finish drill?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=you ... WRl0zNj8oQ

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Axis Tilt - 3* (yikes!!!)
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 Post subject: Re: Female, 140 avg, dumps the ball. What to do?
 Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:47 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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My two cents:

Let’s look at her sequence from the top forward.

I’ve used Danielle for comparison.

1) In slide 1 she looks in a pretty good position to deliver the ball.

2) Slide 2 is where her problems begin…...as she moves forward there is no descent of the body.
Also, notice the lack of sufficient bend in her right leg…………as a result her hips have remained at
the same height they were in the previous step. She remains at this height throughout the
release.

3) In slide 4 she is releasing the ball from a much higher height above the floor than Danielle.
Thus you will hear a thud of the ball onto the lane.....this doesn't mean she is dropping the ball
or hitting up on the ball.

4) She also stands straight up after release in slide 5, not allowing her body momentum to travel
forward.

5) The lack of descent from the top and knee continuation through and after release are her
number one priorities to address from my perspective.

I would have her assume her position at the top with NO ball:

1) Then slide her left foot forward while focusing on getting her right knee lower to the floor.

2) Think about trying to get the lower right leg parallel to the floor.

3) Do repetitions of this drill without the ball so she can feel her body in the proper positions.

4) I would then have her do one step drills with the ball trying to repeat those same positions.

5) Once she accomplishes this she can go back to her pendulum swing drill and try to achieve those same positions from the top down through release.

6) If she can accomplish this there is a good chance the thud of the ball onto the will disappear.

Best of luck.


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 Post subject: Re: Female, 140 avg, dumps the ball. What to do?
 Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 3:08 am Post Number: #13 Post
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Thanks for answering, JMerrell, I know you know what you talk about, and I bet if there is something you don't know, you don't talk either! We need more of those in the bowling community for sure!

My plan for her coaching was/is to get her over to 5 steps. Currently she uses 4 steps, but doesn't set the ball in motion until the second step, like a 5 step bowler. This is an obvious cause to late timing, which I'd say she has even in the swing/pendulum drill video I posted.

Now, since going from 4 steps to 5 is a rather big change for some bowlers, and as I've tried it with her once before, she is in the "some bowlers" group. As the ETBF L1 instructor said: Don't tell them they are going to change something, tell them they are going to learn something new that they can use. People don't like change, but new, shiny stuff, that is awesome! :D

Anyways, point to this ramble:
Since she has to work on a lot of basics, like the added step, timing and so on, I wonder if a lot of her problems might lessen or go away by focusing on the 5 step approach?

Starting drills, 2- and 3-step starting drills, and of course from the foul line: 0 step, 1 step and 2 step to get her timing changed to go 5 steps and get the right arm and ball moving as the first step hits the approach.

Depending on how well she takes it in and is able to change, I could of course take it as far as the 4 channel drill, to change her step length and sideways direction of her steps too. And if we get there (she will move in August to a city 2.5hrs away), her stance mid-approach (forward and sidways tilt) is a part of the new 4-channel way of seeing things, to let the ball go straight and free.

Any thoughts on my approach to her continued practice and coaching? I think she can teach me a lot about coaching as well, and I will clock a lot of hours on my coaching practice, got 6 months to get my last ~30 hours of coaching practice done so I am certified level 1 ETBF coach.

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pap: 3 1/2" right 1 1/2" up
speed: 15 at GS96/Qubica sensors
rev rate: 400
axis rotation: 15°
axis tilt: very close to 0°

years bowling: 10
league average: 175
high game: 290
high series: 756


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 Post subject: Re: Female, 140 avg, dumps the ball. What to do?
 Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 4:52 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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jimmydanny, congratulations in advance on your ETBF educational achievement.

If allowed and you have the time, there are people on this forum (I don't know how many) that are interested in ETBF methodology to expand their knowledge and gain addition perspective.

My exposure to ETBF is via the ETBF presentation posted on this forum and a few videos from Finland (I do not speak the language).

If you care to post your location, you can do so in your forum profile.

Good luck to you and your future students.

Take care.

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 Post subject: Re: Female, 140 avg, dumps the ball. What to do?
 Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 7:23 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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Jimmy thanks for the kind words, and yes you are correct. I’m always tell all my students during the first lesson that I don’t know everything but together we can work through any situation.

I like your idea of converting her to a five-step bowler, and yes by converting her some of her other problems might disappear as a bonus.

Great way of encouraging change: “Don't tell them they are going to change something, tell them they are going to learn something new that they can use”.

I am very familiar with the ETBF 3-channel approach, please explain how the 4-channel approach works.

When I first learned about ETBF, I presented their teaching methodology to this website as educational material.

I think it's safe to say that it has peaked a lot of interest from the members.

I even considered making the trip to Kuortane; to audit the Level 3 Class. But, they require that you take the Level 1 & @ Classes prior to taking the Level 3 Class.

I understand their decision for that, but as I said I was willing to just audit the class without certification in order that I had a clearer understanding of the teaching philosophy.

I would then be better educated as far as offering that methodology to students here in the U.S.

I think your approach to practice and the coaching you are providing is spot on. And you are correct, as long as you and the student have an open dialog during instructional lessons, you too will learn something.

As you complete your Level 1 Certification and move on, it might be worth asking if you were to provide on-line coaching that you could possibly receive some type of accreditation for that service. ( We would love to add you to our Certified Coaching Forum).

All the best on your coaching journey,
Jim

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 Post subject: Re: Female, 140 avg, dumps the ball. What to do?
 Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 7:34 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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Thank you for the kind words in return, both!

I did indeed mean 3-channel, I was thinking number of tape strips I had to put down lol!

But yes, 3-channel will achieve the same as the so-far undeveloped 4-channel approach :lol: :lol:

I hope I get to finish my practical part of the Level 1 so I get my certificate soon! Going further than Level 1 is not an option due to time (I am a part-owner of the local bowling center, mechanic on our beloved GSes, and part-time worker at the counter, plus our clubs national league contact and manager, and one of the coaches obviously), money and the amount of players we got locally. Our local club has gone from 25 to just 12 active members, not a lot to coach, especially when 4-7 of them are over 185 in avg.

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pap: 3 1/2" right 1 1/2" up
speed: 15 at GS96/Qubica sensors
rev rate: 400
axis rotation: 15°
axis tilt: very close to 0°

years bowling: 10
league average: 175
high game: 290
high series: 756


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 Post subject: Re: Female, 140 avg, dumps the ball. What to do?
 Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 8:56 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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jimmydanny wrote:
Thank you for the kind words in return, both!

I did indeed mean 3-channel, I was thinking number of tape strips I had to put down lol!

But yes, 3-channel will achieve the same as the so-far undeveloped 4-channel approach :lol: :lol:

I hope I get to finish my practical part of the Level 1 so I get my certificate soon! Going further than Level 1 is not an option due to time (I am a part-owner of the local bowling center, mechanic on our beloved GSes, and part-time worker at the counter, plus our clubs national league contact and manager, and one of the coaches obviously), money and the amount of players we got locally. Our local club has gone from 25 to just 12 active members, not a lot to coach, especially when 4-7 of them are over 185 in avg.


Jimmy, you may find that the higher the average, the tougher the challenge to improve is.
Also, less students means more time to devote to each.

Best of luck to you. I look forward to your contributions to the bowling community.

P.S. I figured the 4 instead of 3 was "typo" error.
If you watched the ETBF video of the March 2014 presentation at the ITRC, Onder corrects Juha's comment on what step of the approach he was talking about.

Have you read the ETBF presidents letter Nov 2014 on the ETBF Academy web page?
http://www.etbfacademy.eu/from-us/lette ... -president

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http://mwkworks.com/desiderata.html

"Democracy dies in darkness"
"An ever vigilant press is the guardian of a free society."
E-books are convenient, but easily changed or removed.
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 Post subject: Re: Female, 140 avg, dumps the ball. What to do?
 Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 8:31 am Post Number: #18 Post
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They say ETBF is in general up to 160 avg, BUT as there is a lot of new stuff, and Norway didn't follow ETBF till a couple of years ago, there might be changes compared to Norways old coaching practices. Else, we talk level 2 and 3.

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pap: 3 1/2" right 1 1/2" up
speed: 15 at GS96/Qubica sensors
rev rate: 400
axis rotation: 15°
axis tilt: very close to 0°

years bowling: 10
league average: 175
high game: 290
high series: 756


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