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 Post subject: Pull don't push - Mo P
 Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 2:00 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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One of my friends (Mike Kennedy) went to Florida earlier this year to bowl some PBA50 events and was rapt to have spent some time with Mo. Mo quite generously gave him a USB full of info which Mike subsequently shared with me. In one of the slides in his presentations Mo makes the following statements:

"Envision a railroad track to understand the balance concept. Pull your weight up onto the slide leg using your abdominal muscles. Don’t drive off the push off foot. Pull, don't push."

I was really curious about this as I've never come across this concept before.

Does anyone have any further insight as to what Mo means by this? I'm guessing he means your forward momentum contributes to the slide, and not to push off your pivot step.

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 Post subject: Re: Pull don't push - Mo P
 Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 2:30 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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Dean,
I can answer part of your question.

The athlete shown is Chris Weber, a young man I coached through high school and college.
The picture in Mo's book is from a video I sent Mo of Chris in 2013.
As you can see he was always very balanced at the line dating back to 2007.

See slide below entitled rr track.

Imagine the slide foot balanced on the right rail of a rail road track and the trail leg balanced on the left rail of a rail road track.

Thus the phrase: "Envision a railroad track to understand the balance concept."

Perhaps, someone who has had a lesson with Mo, could explain the second part of your question.


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 Post subject: Re: Pull don't push - Mo P
 Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 6:54 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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Guessing here.
Emphasis on Guess and conjecture.
This is the classroom, I'm shooting out conjecture off the top of my head and would like to learn.
Teacher asked, I raised my hand ...
If you think pull with the Abs, that is going to engage your core, move your weight, your hips forward, get your weight off your trailing leg, make that trailing foot a passenger and not the engine.
In part it could be a focus/mental gambit as well as a physical action. Pushing off with the rear foot also drives some energy backwards, if you did not have a tacky push off sole, the sole and foot would fly a bit backwards, maybe cause a little backward lean.

A while ago, someone put an array of sensors on Sean Rash, to monitor what parts of his body was doing. I wonder if they revealed anything related to this.

I thought I'd throw that out on the table.

I've been wrong before, but many times when one is wrong, that brings out other ideas.
Sometimes the right idea, but sometimes the idea emerges and the answer evolves.

Fire away.

Edits:
1) Mention of crunch by Mo
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4892&p=38924&hilit=Abs#p38924

2) Another response from Mo
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2662&hilit=Crunch

3) Observation of perhaps the consummate slider Marshall Holman.
From the wiki
Although there is no explanation, you can see that there is no excessive push, look at about 1:10 in, it's slow motion, side view,
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... sion_Tapes
Even more Marshall
https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=iWj3-RmKHOQ

4) Sports science segment Sean Rash - well they did not discuss torso pressures in this segment, but I left it in. Yes you will find this link elsewhere in the forum if I recall correctly. Listen to the comment about the effect 1 milimeter deviation from slope tolerance on the balls perception of friction.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gY-8BUnSgf4

5) Engaging the core keeps the weight centered, reduces a tendency to lunge forward. We don't want weight behind or forward.

6) Quoting Maestro Pinel, page 53, "See it, feel it, do it"
Predominant muscle action during release.
A controlled crunching of the abdominal muscles, during the release, will maintain the correct body position, control the shoulder height, and steady the body during the release, resulting in a more solid finish position and increased leverage.
CAUTION:DO NOT LUNGE!

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 Post subject: Re: Pull don't push - Mo P
 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:49 am Post Number: #4 Post
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I worked with Mark Baker a few years ago. He used the concept of dropping the hip on the second to last step. Even though it is called the power step, I believe it is more of a step that helps create the landing. As mentioned, the abs pull causing spine tilt to diminish. Thus creating a balanced upright finish. I assume this is what Mo is teaching.

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 Post subject: Re: Pull don't push - Mo P
 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:03 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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russelldean wrote:
I worked with Mark Baker a few years ago. He used the concept of dropping the hip on the second to last step. Even though it is called the power step, I believe it is more of a step that helps create the landing. As mentioned, the abs pull causing spine tilt to diminish. Thus creating a balanced upright finish. I assume this is what Mo is teaching.


Russell, the dropped hit precept if I recall correctly is what Mark said keeps the arm and elbow from chicken winging. It's been a long time since I watched the video, but there is a segment where Mark and Chris are working hand on arm, discussing the bad things that happen if the hips get raise up.
In that manner he ascribes the tendency to chicken wing to the hips more than the arm.
As bowling is a chain of events, cause and effect, this begets that and so on.

After reading the initial post I went to the kitchen where the is a laminate floor, tried a few sliding (in socks) gambit using Marshall Holman as a model.

Note that the slide is an element we can practice on an isolated basis then integrate the ball back in.

One can also slide holding a ball with both hands close to the Abs, this will add weight and also encourage you to be lower, or so I think.

I would encourage people to test things out under controlled circumstances.
Bowling has component parts, you can isolate, then reintegrate.
There are the with/without drills or A/B, props, aides, buddy systems.

Being curious and ignorant, I trolled and fished. Mo is the only person I've heard reference the use of the Abs thusly. That is why I looked up the Sports Science show with the sensors on Sean Rash.
I suspect there is a lot of data they did not discuss on the show.

As Yogi said you can observe a lot by watching ....
That is, some coaches that have published tell us they studied hundreds of videos, worked with elite bowlers so as to learn. Often, the student teaches the teacher.
The use of technology including body sensors amplifies that opportunity.
Organisations such as USBC and Ball companies can afford such things and promulgate.

There is a book called "The physics of baseball", it was written by a Yale professor as a favor for the then commissioner. All sports involve the physics of the environment and the body.
If more bowlers demanded formal education by voting at the cash register, it would be there and bowlers would not have to scrounge.

Tom Kouros took a serious stab at this via his PAR BOWLING set.

We spend thousands on equipment, some of us spend it on coaching, learning etc, but too many do not.
Bowling Centers do little to help.
The USBC has improved their video content, but lol around your bowling center and see how much they point bowlers to coaching or even a link to an educational resource.

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 Post subject: Re: Pull don't push - Mo P
 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 3:50 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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I believe the motion Mo is describing is similar to what one does when pushing a skateboard. I used to be a very good skateboarder in my teens and 20's and know what the motion feels like very well and will attempt to describe it: once you push off the floor your abs engage and the muscles of the leg that's already on the skateboard help continue that thrust given off the push off foot once it leaves the floor while at the same time working in conjunction with the abs to acheive balance and transfer the forward thrust to the skateboard.

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 Post subject: Re: Pull don't push - Mo P
 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:27 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Tony, that really helps. I was trying to imagine how the abs and slide foot fit into it, and I think you nailed it. When I was rehabbing my hip/foot injury, some of the PT exercises they gave me involved resistance bands and doing similar movements that worked the large muscle groups and engaged the core as well. Doing these (and others) has yielded a significant stability improvement at the line. The hip extension in particular mimics that "skateboard pushoff" movement.




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 Post subject: Re: Pull don't push - Mo P
 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:40 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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Tony, that is an excellent and intuitive answer.
Reminds me about Ron Clifton's swivel chair lesson!!!

Greenies for Tony anyone???

Tony your observation could be part of a wiki article on the approach and footwork.


Who'd-a-thunk Mo Skate Boarded.

Cowabunga!!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Pull don't push - Mo P
 Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:06 am Post Number: #9 Post
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good stuff guys...

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 Post subject: Re: Pull don't push - Mo P
 Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:08 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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to say I have had a lesson with Mo would be an understatement. The reference to pull don't push is intended to make the weight transfer from step 4 to the slide (in a 5 step approach) the most efficient as possible.

For me to do this correctly, I actually have to have BOTH feet on the floor during the beginning of my slide. I engage my abs during setup. My foot cadence is SLOW SLOW Quick Quick slide. During my practices i would do 3 step drills (MO DOES NOT TEACH THESE). This helped me control or isolate the section of my approach I wanted to master. During my time I have found it helpful to think more weight transfer than PUSH/POWER/DRIVE into the slide. I think glide, no engine, SMOOTH.

Suggestion: Try to feel the knee being pulled into the body almost like it is lagging. If you don't feel a pull of the legs, concentrate on your abs more than your feet.

Hope this helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Pull don't push - Mo P
 Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:58 am Post Number: #11 Post
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Thanks Dan, I was actually thinking about this again the other day.

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 Post subject: Re: Pull don't push - Mo P
 Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:45 am Post Number: #12 Post
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I read this thread when it was first posted up. It didnt make much sense to me at the time but reading this again i totally get the skateboard analogy. Funny how things work for me

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