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 Post subject: flat 10 pin left
 Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:25 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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Just in my first year of bowling, I find myself and others leaving the six in ditch and 10pin standing. Nothing seems to be consistent enough. If I could up my speed to cut my roll out? Shorting the length might work. Welcome advice.

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 Post subject: Re: flat 10 pin left
 Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:33 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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Initial thought is your ball is burning up. You have one of a couple options:

1. Up your speed - This will hopefully allow the ball to get further down the lane before burning out.
2. Play more in the oil - This will allow the ball to conserve more energy until the ball encounters friction. This can be difficult if doing this pushes you more inside than to your liking or further than the ball likes.
3. Change the surface - Doing this will typically act like playing in the oil more, just in the drier part of the lane. One negative is this can also make the ball react more uncontrollably when it does encounter friction.
4. Use a weaker ball - Much like changing the surface, this usually allows the ball to be less reactive to the dry and hopefully conserve more energy.

My personal choice is to play more in the oil. Most of today's equipment is versatile enough to play in the typically oily part of a THS. However, if you need to have more extreme launch angles, this may not work and you will have to go to a different ball all together.

Good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: flat 10 pin left
 Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:01 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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What balls and layouts are you using?

What are your release specs?

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=373

Having tuned layouts can help with your situation.

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 Post subject: Re: flat 10 pin left
 Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:42 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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A MO quote:
"When you're leaving pins in the back row, your ball is not slowing down enough, or you're missing your breakpoint location!"

Before worrying about layouts, Look at your physical game first.

Adjust your speed, change your angles, Adjust surface

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 Post subject: Re: flat 10 pin left
 Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:35 am Post Number: #5 Post
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From my experience and what I learned, either entry angle or deflection is the prime cause of leaving corner pin.

Entry angle
Either skid too long or roll too soon will change the entry angle.

Deflection
Ball is still in the hook phase.

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 Post subject: Re: flat 10 pin left
 Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:15 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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Thanks for the advice. Will try and see what works. I bowl with a 25 year bowler and we bowl on our Thursday night league where the oil patterns for past weeks has been very inconsistent. I have moved to inside to meet my avg. Each week but partner plays 2nd arrow can't get his avg. And want move. I am reluctant to say anything because he's got the experience.

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 Post subject: Re: flat 10 pin left
 Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:32 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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There are 5 phases a ball goes through on it's way to the pins:
1. Skid phase
2. First transition (from skid to hook)
3. Hook phase (and you don't want to see the ball hook into the pins, it's a common misconception)
4. Second transition (from hook to roll, this happens when axis rotation equals axis tilt as the ball will burn them as it travels down the lane)
5. Roll phase (you want the ball to be in the roll phase just before it hits the pins for it to carry it's best. If it is still hooking and never reaches the roll phase, it will deflect and leave 7, 8s and/or 10 pins. If it reaches it's roll phase too soon and burns all of it's tilt and axis rotation it will hit soft like a marshmellow, this is called "roll out").

All back row pin leaves except the 9 pin, assuming you are hitting the pocket, are caused by deflection. 4s and 9s are hits that are too strong.

-The above information I learned by listening to Mo Pinel in the above 180 podcast series "Ball Drilling For Dummies".

Always post your shot and observe your ball as it goes through these 5 phases of ball motion as it travels from release and off the pin deck. It's good to practice without pins sometimes to see what your ball does in the pin deck. Observing your ball roll will give you a lot of information about the lane conditions and how they transition.

-Post your stats: (speed, rev rate, axis tilt, axis rotation, pap)
-Post the lane surface and oil pattern you are bowling on
-Post the balls you are using, their layouts/surface, and line you are playing (arrows and breakpoint)
-And if you can, tell us where and how those 5 phases are ocurring

It's all physics and can be explain and solved...

I love this part of bowling... now if I could just get my body to do what I want it to do... :D


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 Post subject: Re: flat 10 pin left
 Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:30 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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I just posted a question on this subject on community coaching. <Mo says it's burning out and TongPR says hooking into pocket. Please help a new bowler understand.
brodon651 wrote:
Thanks for the advice. Will try and see what works. I bowl with a 25 year bowler and we bowl on our Thursday night league where the oil patterns for past weeks has been very inconsistent. I have moved to inside to meet my avg. Each week but partner plays 2nd arrow can't get his avg. And want move. I am reluctant to say anything because he's got the experience.

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 Post subject: Re: flat 10 pin left
 Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:42 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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brodon651 wrote:
I just posted a question on this subject on community coaching. <Mo says it's burning out and TongPR says hooking into pocket. Please help a new bowler understand.


Mo has never used the words "burning out".
Please quote your sources correctly, thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: flat 10 pin left
 Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:50 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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excuse me...I misunderstood. burning out was by Spmcgivern. But my question can someone help me understand flat 10. Didn't mean to step on toes...

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 Post subject: Re: flat 10 pin left
 Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:54 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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brodon651 wrote:
excuse me...I misunderstood. burning out was by Spmcgivern. But my question can someone help me understand flat 10. Didn't mean to step on toes...


Either the ball is in the hook phase, or the entry angle is poor.

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 Post subject: Re: flat 10 pin left
 Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:24 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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Flat ten pin explained:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11636

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 Post subject: Re: flat 10 pin left
 Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:53 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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Thank you. I went and played this morning with my league member. He had again several 10 pins left and saw his ball moving very fast into the pocket hit. Don't know how to tell him within offending him. He want to move left but stays on 2nd arrow and ball still leaves 10 pin.
I had one 10 pin with a solid pocket hit and moved 2 boards left and slowed down a little and hit 3 strikes in a row. This forum is one of my favorites along with a couple of more. Ya'll have helped me improved my game. The biggest adjustment has been line-of-sight, looking beyond the arrows/target.
Thank to all of you.

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 Post subject: Re: flat 10 pin left
 Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 5:41 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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You can be comfortable or you can score...that is something every bowler must answer.

Flat 10 pins, plain and simple: it is not the correct ball motion for scoring. If you are looking for a "quick" fix, then move left with eyes and feet. You could move anywhere from 1-12 boards with your feet and something like 0-10 boards with your eyes. The exact move is determined by the ball motion seen at that moment.

If you want the real solution, watch the ball exit the pin deck and not just hit the pocket. If you watch the ball as it goes off the back of the pin deck you will see where the deflection is happening: 8's, 10's and 8-10's are WEAK hits. You will see when you ball is driving too hard leaving: 4's, 9's, 4-9's, 7's or 7-9's. Those are all STRONG hits.

We could go back and forth for days on end about this topic. If your friend doesn't want to move, then I hope they know how to make 95+% of their 10's.

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