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 Post subject: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:30 am Post Number: #1 Post
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I am getting a Torrid Affair at a great price from bowlingball.com 79.99 in case anybody wants a deal.My question is what kind of layout should I put on it.I drill my own stuff and am trying to learn the dual angle layouts.The THS we have in 3 bowling alleys we have in this area(same owner) All oiled the same is on the wet/dry side with really strong backends.I usually fight with over /under alot.I am 52 years old been bowling 42 years .Have had honor scores with plastic.urethane and resin.Wanting to use this as a benchmark ball.
Average in the 220s untill last couple of years since new owner took over 3 houses.Really puts out a houseshot for the flathanders.Now around 205 and 210 two different houses.I still bowl good just struggle with carry alot 8s 9s and ringing 10s alot.Sorry about the rambling on just letting who ever know I'm no cherry here.Sometimes see people asking for layouts and see they average 170.Thanks for any suggestions
My Stats are Right handed
16mph
17 Tilt
Axis Rotation 60 to 75
rr 400 and can amp up to 450 if needed
Pap is 5 1/4 over 0 up or down was measured on flaring ball


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:03 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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How did you come by the ball speed... measured off the hand or the monitor? Either way you are rev dominant and the ball is Symmetrical... my best guess would be something like 50 x 5 1/2 x 80. ... because the ball is a sym feel free to adjust the drill angle to get a favourable CG position for a gradient line hole if required.... hope fully better minds than mine will chip in and correct me if I am way of base.

MOS.

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Speed - 18.5 Mph (off hand)
RPM - 475
Rotation -55*
Tilt - 16* (11")
PAP 4 over 3/8 up
Rev Dominant

I have bowled 300.... Down hill with a tail wind. ;P


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:04 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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Knowing how the speed is measured is really needed to determine your benchmark. Then from the benchmark determine How to layout the Torrid. I would also like to know what other equip and layouts you are using so as to not duplicate a reaction you already have in your arsenal.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:39 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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Ball speed was measured by a program A pba member named John May used.So actually not sure how it was measured.He had a camera that was used on a laptop with a program.I can't remember the name of it.Hopefully that may give an idea.Also would something like a 2 inch pin to pap maybe help the over/under crap its driving me crazy.I have tried lots of different drillings.Have not tried 2 inch pin yet.With my tilt and rotation my ball see's any friction it goes sideways.Have even tried surface like 1500 ,3000.Balls kinda puke just don't hit good.More polished worse it is.Tried pin down drilling its terrible rolls early then hits like a turd.Its not rolling out it just does not have any continuation thru the pins.Actually thought about quitting a game that I love.No fun watching no hander's shooting honor scores every week.This season there has been over 100.And we don't actually have that many bowlers .Its a small town.Surely there is something that I can try.I have to always play around 4th and 5th arrow.When most are playing up the desert.Hard to compete with them.They pitch it in the dry it dont over react and they have tug.I can flat hand it but its just not my game.Sorry to be ramblin .Just shot 575 and missed the hole 3 pitches all nite.Had 13 ten pins Yes I said 13.Got so frustrated I missed a few.PLEASE HELP! lol


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:41 am Post Number: #5 Post
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Oh well looks like there must be no help for me.Kinda the conclusion I came to after going thru about 10 different balls and layouts before I posted for help.Sure wished the Urethane days would magically come back or the good old taper or crown shots.Instead of this great dry to the right wall of china crap.And to the couple of post.Thanks for trying.Going to go learn another sport curling and no its not the Winter Olympic sport.Its 16oz cans. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:54 am Post Number: #6 Post
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bowlingforsoup wrote:
Oh well looks like there must be no help for me.Kinda the conclusion I came to after going thru about 10 different balls and layouts before I posted for help.Sure wished the Urethane days would magically come back or the good old taper or crown shots.Instead of this great dry to the right wall of china crap.And to the couple of post.Thanks for trying.Going to go learn another sport curling and no its not the Winter Olympic sport.Its 16oz cans. :lol:

I didn't know Campbell came in 16 oz cans


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:29 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Let's keep this simple. Using Radical's revised layout recommendations go pin under with cg out just enough for a hole to fine tune.

I'd remove the polish starting at 2000 and probably go 3.5" pin to pap for some flare so you get a somewhat hook set reaction to battle the wet/dry.

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Rev rate ~ 350
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:09 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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16mph
17 Tilt
Axis Rotation 60 to 75
rr 400 and can amp up to 450 if needed
Pap is 5 1/4 over

Rev dominant Med tilt with Higher rotation

Off your hand, 16 mph makes you EXTREMLY rev dominant and that is your biggest problem in fighting the over/under.

Do you have the speed listed on the scorers where you bowl?

Have you tried using a P1 balance hole on any of your 10 layouts?

If you are truly that Rev dominant have you tried a plastic ball with the PBA drilling on it and played in the dirt with the "no handers"?

What ball, layout and surface prep left you with 13 ten pins?
Ringing tens?
Flat tens?
Empty messengers?

You asked for a benchmark ball, not really a good idea for the THS shot. Control layouts work better for this type of condition.

I will ask again for you to list your equipment, layouts, surface and balance hole locations if used.
Analyzing your existing arsenal can help explain the dual angle system and give you a better understanding of when certain layouts should be use and what ones should not be used.

There is help, just need more info.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:12 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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I was trying to offer a solution but I firmly back Eric's last post!

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Rev rate ~ 350
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:30 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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Me too....

MOS.

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Speed - 18.5 Mph (off hand)
RPM - 475
Rotation -55*
Tilt - 16* (11")
PAP 4 over 3/8 up
Rev Dominant

I have bowled 300.... Down hill with a tail wind. ;P


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:24 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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Eric did give good advice, but I'd like to add a different option. Get a very weak reactive resin ball, I suggest a Storm Tropical Breeze. Use the 2" pin to PAP with the cg about 1/2" right of the centerline and a 60* angle to the VAL. Add a gradient line balance hole if needed to modify the reaction. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:27 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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Ok guys thanks for the replies.I will try and answer the questions.Ten pins are Ringing mostly at this house.Messengers are you kidding these houses are all are 35 plus years old.Side boards are dead.Its like getting a xmas present when you do get one.I understand I don't need benchmark.Kinda meant A few options for battling these dry houseshots.As for speed a guy used a camera.Gave me all my stats which I needed.As for at the monitors only one house has that working.I really don't put much faith in them.Usually best I can remember they say around 15mph mostly.Someone suggested a 3.5 for a hookset reaction.Heck I get hookset with anything pinup.I can rollout a ball pinup easy.Rollout for me is ten pin city.I can get it downlane easy,But when it hits friction at back .it's off the chart.Like kicking it sideways.Lane guy tries to say hes oiling 41 foot,I laugh.Ok ball stuff .I have tried pin up 4 to 5 inch stuff.Polished with surface.pin down 5 to 4 inch.Polished and with surface.Pin down with surface haha no way.Talk about early hook.Equipment I am trying to use right now is.I have a Storm hy road,drilled 5 x 4 x 3.Says its for deep inside late break point.Ball is a hooker most hooking I have really.I have a misfit 45 x 5 x 65. also a storm fringe 80 x 4 1/2 x 70.I have a few more But not using they suck.As far as plastic had that brainstorm too.got a hammer true blood and drilled the most aggressive the paper that came with it said.It hits like crap.I can hit the pocket easy it just doesn't carry.Might try a new blue hammer.Its just I thought maybe I could use the torrid.As for the didn't know cambell came in a 16oz can.I had a few beers last night.I meant 12 oz cans.Lol.Ok hope I answered the questions.Thanks Guys I do appreciate the help.


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:20 am Post Number: #13 Post
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Forgot the ten pins was with the hy road 5 x 4 x 3.Storm say's this about this layout. Good combination of length and backend
Great for drier heads and/or a deep inside line
Late break point Low volume or wet/dry
Ball is just stupid on the backends.I had new mastermind didn't hook like a hy road.Also the comment about the cambell's soup .I was talking 12 oz beer cans.Lol.Incase you didn't know Bowling for soup is a band That actually played live on a PBA event a few years ago.It's on youtube. Another one of the PBA's dumb ideas.Anything else I will try and answer.


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:33 am Post Number: #14 Post
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I ran across a layout file of Mo's Simple Suggested Symmetrical Layouts.It list Most controllable as 85 x 3 3/4 x 55.Anybody ever tried this.Would a layout like this maybe work for me?


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:34 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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Have you received your Torrid Affair yet? Im curious as to the pin to Cg length.I am thinking about your situation and believe a P1 balance hole is the help you are looking for.

Ringing ten pins, your ball wasn't getting into a roll. I would bet that you were seeing the ball deflect and travel through the 9 pin and not continue through and hit the 8 pin as well. A little more ball surface can remedy this. Or a hand adjustment that you use to get the ball to roll sooner. Playing 4th and 5th arrow in the puddle makes the pattern play longer than swinging it out early into the dirt so too high of totals with reduced flare may not get into a roll.

15 on the scorers 17.5 off your hand confirms you are definitely rev dominant. Not as bad as the initial 16mph would indicate.

Benchmark 105* total, 1:1 ratio
Asym........52-4.25-52.................Sym......57-3.25-47 balance hole 2" below midline on the VAL

50-5-45 DA equiv of the 5x4x3 on the Hyroad
The drilling angle is ~85* measuring to the thumb. Essentially 130* totals, 85-5-45

Torrid Affair (~ 85)-3-40 P1 balance hole 2000, 4000 for surface prep
roll the ball without the hole first then start small 3/4" and deep 3" testing it before making it larger

Using the Cg to pin to PAP drilling angle to make sure the Cg gives you positive and finger weight to allow the P1 hole. You will be pleasantly surprised what the P1 will do for you.

If you are unsure about the P1 you could try it on a ball that sucks just to see what the P1 hole can do. I suggest trying it on a pin up ball that rolls out on you. P1 will fix that.

bowlingforsoup wrote:
I ran across a layout file of Mo's Simple Suggested Symmetrical Layouts.It list Most controllable as 85 x 3 3/4 x 55.Anybody ever tried this.Would a layout like this maybe work for me?

This layout will have more flare and probably not have the skid length of the HyRoad
It could be a versatile enough layout to tune in with balance hole and surface.

Play around with my P1 idea on an old ball before you drill up the Torrid. Go forward with confidence on it. Don't put a layout on it that your thinking this will never work and then not really give it a chance. I want you to use my suggestion and before the first shot after popping the balance hole know this is what I have been looking for my whole life, kind of positive thoughts.

Dont get hung up on the Drilling angle on the Symmetrical balls, position the Cg to give you the most or best option for balance holes or position the Cg close to your grip center to avoid the need for a weight hole. From what I have figured the drilling angle on Symmetrical balls will be ~80*-85* for your layouts post drilled.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:52 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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Thanks for the info.I was thinking the P1 hole.The Torrid Affair I got has a 3 inch pin 3.3 oz top weight.I really appreciate you taking the time to help.


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:35 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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Be cautious with P1 holes, I added one (that was too big) to a ball that was too snappy on the back end and turned it into a complete dud. Ended up filling the hole about 3/4 of the way back up to get some back end. Start with a small hole and increase the size in increments if the reaction isn't weakened enough. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:19 am Post Number: #18 Post
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JohnP wrote:
Be cautious with P1 holes, I added one (that was too big) to a ball that was too snappy on the back end and turned it into a complete dud. Ended up filling the hole about 3/4 of the way back up to get some back end. Start with a small hole and increase the size in increments if the reaction isn't weakened enough. -- JohnP


Very good advice!


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:36 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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I finally got around to drilling the the torrid affair per Eric's advice.I have a question before I put the p1 hole in it.I have two different sheets on the gradient holes.One is showing the p holes are from mass bias looks like on asymmetrical balls.The other sheet does not really say ,It just shows it to be 6 3/4 up the val.My question is this do I measure from the thumb hole which should be psa on a symmetrical.I have rolled the ball without the hole rolls ok.But I believe the p1 hole may be the ticket.Just want to be sure about the hole placement.Thanks guys.


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:08 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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bowlingforsoup wrote:
I finally got around to drilling the the torrid affair per Eric's advice.I have a question before I put the p1 hole in it.I have two different sheets on the gradient holes.One is showing the p holes are from mass bias looks like on asymmetrical balls.The other sheet does not really say ,It just shows it to be 6 3/4 up the val.My question is this do I measure from the thumb hole which should be psa on a symmetrical.I have rolled the ball without the hole rolls ok.But I believe the p1 hole may be the ticket.Just want to be sure about the hole placement.Thanks guys.


Roll the ball and find your actual PAP on the Torrid to properly locate the P1.

Measure 6-3/4" from the pin to a point 1/2" left of the grip centerline. This location should be just below your thumb. Then measure 6-3/4" to the VAL this will be P1 and will be approximately 3/4" above your PAP. It will be slightly different if your PAP is found to be different from what you had posted earlier.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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