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 Post subject: Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant
 Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:48 pm Post Number: #21 Post
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MWhite wrote:
Mo Pinel wrote:
MathIsTruth wrote:
I think this thread is getting out of hand. The goal is to obtain an idea about the bowlers initial release, the relationship of ball speed to rev rate. The chart is a guide to determine whether a bowler is more speed dominant or more rev dominant. Thats it.... I believe Mo defined the numbers in the chart to have something to work from.


YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!!! IT'S INITIAL REV RATE vs INITIAL BALL SPEED THAT DETERMINES THE PLAYER'S CATEGORY. LET'S STICK TO THAT PREMISE.


Can you explain what differences are occurring between a hypothetical set of bowlers that puts them in separate categories?

A) 17 mph, 200 RPM
B) 17 mph, 300 RPM
C) 17 mph, 400 RPM

For any parameters missing, assume values that help to clarify, and assume all three have the same parameters excluding RPM.




Bowler A: ball speed dominates over effects of rev rates. Adjustments should be made to angle sum to compensate for the extra speed. Decrease angle sum.

Bowler B: neither ball speed or rev rate dominates the other so bowler is pretty well matched.

Bowler C: rev rate dominates ball speed. An increase in angle sum should be used to compensate for the bowlers high rev rate.

We use the chart to get an idea about the relationship. This affects the angle sums we would use in the layout. Hope that helps...




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 Post subject: Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant
 Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:34 pm Post Number: #22 Post
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kellytehuna wrote:
I would think the answer to that particular question is obvious. If we assume all three bowlers are throwing the same ball, with the same layout and surface preparation, with the same release stats on the same condition and playing the same line:

If Bowler A is lined up and in the pocket, Bowler B will be through the beak, and Bowler C will cross over every time.

If Bowler B is lined up and in the pocket, Bowler A would tend to hit light pocket shots at best, and Bowler C will tend to go through the beak or cross over.

If Bowler C is lined up and in the pocket, Bowler A would likely be hitting the 3 pin in the face, and Bowler C will be hitting light at best.


I could have chosen

A) 17 mph, 100 RPM
B) 17 mph, 150 RPM
C) 17 mph, 200 RPM

Everything you said would still be correct, but all 3 of those bowlers would have been in the same speed dominant category. My question is what is happening that makes them in different categories.


Last edited by MWhite on Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant
 Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:43 pm Post Number: #23 Post
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MathIsTruth wrote:
MWhite wrote:

Can you explain what differences are occurring between a hypothetical set of bowlers that puts them in separate categories?

A) 17 mph, 200 RPM
B) 17 mph, 300 RPM
C) 17 mph, 400 RPM

For any parameters missing, assume values that help to clarify, and assume all three have the same parameters excluding RPM.




Bowler A: ball speed dominates over effects of rev rates. Adjustments should be made to angle sum to compensate for the extra speed. Decrease angle sum.

Bowler B: neither ball speed or rev rate dominates the other so bowler is pretty well matched.

Bowler C: rev rate dominates ball speed. An increase in angle sum should be used to compensate for the bowlers high rev rate.

We use the chart to get an idea about the relationship. This affects the angle sums we would use in the layout. Hope that helps...




Ok I think I finally see what the "match" is.

You have a "standard" dual angle layout that the 17 mph, 300 rpm guy fits well with.
And the layout needs adjusting for both the 17 mph, 200 rpm guy, and 17 mph, 400 rpm guy, but in opposition directions.

Thank You


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 Post subject: Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant
 Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:09 pm Post Number: #24 Post
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MWhite wrote:
kellytehuna wrote:
I would think the answer to that particular question is obvious. If we assume all three bowlers are throwing the same ball, with the same layout and surface preparation, with the same release stats on the same condition and playing the same line:

If Bowler A is lined up and in the pocket, Bowler B will be through the beak, and Bowler C will cross over every time.

If Bowler B is lined up and in the pocket, Bowler A would tend to hit light pocket shots at best, and Bowler C will tend to go through the beak or cross over.

If Bowler C is lined up and in the pocket, Bowler A would likely be hitting the 3 pin in the face, and Bowler C will be hitting light at best.


I could have chosen

A) 17 mph, 100 RPM
B) 17 mph, 150 RPM
C) 17 mph, 200 RPM

Everything you said would still be correct, but all 3 of those bowlers would have been in the same speed dominant category. My question is what is happening that makes them in different categories.




You are correct, these scenarios are all speed dominant but with different levels of speed dominance. So we would subtract a little more from the 100 rpm bowler's angle sum than the 200 rpm bowler.






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 Post subject: Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant
 Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:30 am Post Number: #25 Post
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MWhite wrote:
LabRat wrote:
Mr White,
It seems there is a misunderstanding over what bowlers term 'matched' vs your interpretation of the word. Matched does not mean the ball is leaving the hand with the track travelling at the same speed (matched) as the ball is travelling down the lane. In fact, this woud on most lane conditions be very detrimental to your game. It simply means that the bowler has a rev rate and ball speed combination that allows him to match up well to a variety of 'normal' lane conditions using 'normal' layouts and gear. Bowlers that are matched with speed and revs will all get a similar look from their benchmark ball on a given shot in that they will transition correctly, getting the ball into a roll at the correct distance down the lane to carry well. Bowlers that are speed dominant as per the chart will struggle to get the ball into a roll consistently, and will need layout and or surface help to get the ball into a roll sooner - the reverse is true for a rev dominant bowler. Hope this helps.



Please explain to me how a ball thrown at 11 mph and 0 rpm is somehow matched up.


Certanly. Because the purpose of the chart is to assign certain characteristics to speed and rev ranges, I can say that since 11 mph is matched at 0 revs, anyone throwing the ball at 11 mph is going to be rev dominanant. That lets me select and lay out an appropriate ball for them, assuming I can't fix whatever is causing them to throw the ball so slowly in the first place.
The chart is a tool - it's only useful if you know how to use and apply it.

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 Post subject: Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant
 Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:44 pm Post Number: #26 Post
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MWhite wrote:
MathIsTruth wrote:
MWhite wrote:

Can you explain what differences are occurring between a hypothetical set of bowlers that puts them in separate categories?

A) 17 mph, 200 RPM
B) 17 mph, 300 RPM
C) 17 mph, 400 RPM

For any parameters missing, assume values that help to clarify, and assume all three have the same parameters excluding RPM.




Bowler A: ball speed dominates over effects of rev rates. Adjustments should be made to angle sum to compensate for the extra speed. Decrease angle sum.

Bowler B: neither ball speed or rev rate dominates the other so bowler is pretty well matched.

Bowler C: rev rate dominates ball speed. An increase in angle sum should be used to compensate for the bowlers high rev rate.

We use the chart to get an idea about the relationship. This affects the angle sums we would use in the layout. Hope that helps...




Ok I think I finally see what the "match" is.

You have a "standard" dual angle layout that the 17 mph, 300 rpm guy fits well with.
And the layout needs adjusting for both the 17 mph, 200 rpm guy, and 17 mph, 400 rpm guy, but in opposition directions.

Thank You


And, I finally figured out what you were actually looking for! LOL! At least we have this resolved.

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