Rev dominant vs speed dominant

Which layout is right for me?

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dR3w
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Rev dominant vs speed dominant

Post by dR3w »

Forgive me if this has been posted here before. I searched ... But cold not find.

Is there a chart/table in the wiki that show revs vs speed? Meaning what rev rate corresponds to what speed to be matched up, and perhaps as an addition, how much speed or rev dominance there is in regard to someone's ratios?

The people on the forum usually ask if someone is speed or rev dominant, but I cant find anything on the wiki that defines that. Anyone? Help?

Thanks,

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Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant

Post by Rob590 »

Hello,

there is a chart in the wiki, but it is well hidden. :mrgreen:

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... evRate.JPG

This chart will give you matching speeds and revs with speeds measured at the release point.

Mr. Mo stated that he matches 17,5 mph off hand to 275 rpm's.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4407&p=44693&hilit ... mph#p44693 Post #62

And You can add 50 rpm for every 1 mph (18,5 mph would be matched with 325 rpm).

Cheers,

Rob
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Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant

Post by AJCZAR »

Per Mo,

Personally, I use that 275 rpms is matched to 17.5 mph.

I'm pretty sure the adjustment from there is 50RPM per 1MPH

i.e. 225 is matched for 16.5MPH; 325 is matched for 18.5MPH

Someone will correct me if I SNAFUd the math.
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Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant

Post by MathIsTruth »

I added a link to the chart on the wiki in the ProShop Information category under the Bowler Measurements and Reference section. Maybe it should be in the Layout section?

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Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant

Post by dR3w »

Thanks to everyone who replied!!! I guess I just don't know how to search :oops:

So based on that chart, where do you draw the line between slightly dominant and and dominant. So if someone has 300 RPM at what speed would he be slightly dominant and subsequently dominant. Since 17 MPH is matched up, would say 16 be slightly rev dominant and 15 be dominant?
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Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant

Post by MWhite »

I don't seem to get numbers even close to your chart.

Assuming 0 axis tilt, 0 axis rotation.

1 rpm = 27 inches per minute = 2.25 feet per minute = 135 feet per hour = 9/352 miles per hour ~ 1/39 mile per hour

625 rpm = 16 mph
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Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant

Post by Mo Pinel »

MWhite wrote:I don't seem to get numbers even close to your chart.

Assuming 0 axis tilt, 0 axis rotation.

1 rpm = 27 inches per minute = 2.25 feet per minute = 135 feet per hour = 9/352 miles per hour ~ 1/39 mile per hour

625 rpm = 16 mph
AND ????????
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Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant

Post by MWhite »

I thought the AND????? was clear..

To match ball speed and revolutions, you would need a lot more revolutions than listed in the chart.

1 mph ~ 39 RPM


MPH RPM
5 = 196
6 = 235
7 = 274
8 = 313
9 = 352
10 = 391
11 = 430
12 = 469
13 = 508
14 = 548
15 = 587
16 = 626
17 = 665
18 = 704
19 = 743
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Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant

Post by JohnP »

Your calculation doesn't work for at least two reasons. Most bowlers don't track the entire circumference of the ball, and you are completely ignoring that the ball skids for a long way before it rolls. When we talk about speed and revs matching we mean how does the ball react in terms of hooking at the right point and having the right amount of hook to carry. Someone that is speed dominant will need help from layout and surface to get enough hook, someone that is rev dominant will need help to keep the ball from hooking out. There's a lot more to it but hope this gets you on the right track. -- JohnP
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Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant

Post by MWhite »

JohnP wrote:Your calculation doesn't work for at least two reasons. Most bowlers don't track the entire circumference of the ball, and you are completely ignoring that the ball skids for a long way before it rolls. When we talk about speed and revs matching we mean how does the ball react in terms of hooking at the right point and having the right amount of hook to carry. Someone that is speed dominant will need help from layout and surface to get enough hook, someone that is rev dominant will need help to keep the ball from hooking out. There's a lot more to it but hope this gets you on the right track. -- JohnP

1 RPM = 27*cos(t) inches per minute, where t is the axis tilt.

The maximum value for cos(t) is 1, which occurs when t = 0.
For any other axis tilt there would need even more RPM to match MPH.

If you include axis rotation the formula is 1 RPM =27*cos(t)*cos(r) where t is the axis tilt, and r is the axis rotation.

The minimum amount of RPM required to match a given MPH occurs at 0 axis tilt, and 0 axis rotation.
I was using those angles to give the chart the most benefit of the doubt.

Using the chart values lets extrapolate what would be happening at slower speeds.

16-17 mph -> 250 - 300 rpm
15-16 mph -> 200 - 250 rpm
14-15 mph -> 150 - 200 rpm
13-14 mph -> 100 - 150 rpm
12-13 mph -> 50 - 100 rpm
11-12 mph -> 0 - 50 rpm

I don't know about you, but I have a hard time imagining that an 11 mph ball would match with 0 rpm.
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Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant

Post by TH58PZ700U »

MWhite wrote:
1 RPM = 27*cos(t) inches per minute, where t is the axis tilt.

The maximum value for cos(t) is 1, which occurs when t = 0.
For any other axis tilt there would need even more RPM to match MPH.

If you include axis rotation the formula is 1 RPM =27*cos(t)*cos(r) where t is the axis tilt, and r is the axis rotation.

The minimum amount of RPM required to match a given MPH occurs at 0 axis tilt, and 0 axis rotation.
I was using those angles to give the chart the most benefit of the doubt.

Using the chart values lets extrapolate what would be happening at slower speeds.

16-17 mph -> 250 - 300 rpm
15-16 mph -> 200 - 250 rpm
14-15 mph -> 150 - 200 rpm
13-14 mph -> 100 - 150 rpm
12-13 mph -> 50 - 100 rpm
11-12 mph -> 0 - 50 rpm

I don't know about you, but I have a hard time imagining that an 11 mph ball would match with 0 rpm.
I believe you missed the point JohnP made: the ball skids in the oil. This means the ball can have whatever rev rate it wants and whatever speed it wants and it wont matter, the oil inhibits the mechanical and chemical friction of the coverstock and the inertia of the core does not impart any change of movement to the ball.

The matching term does not refer to a mathematical match. It refers to a match of the speed to the rev rate as compared to the characteristics of reaction and the modern bowling environment. The amount of change the core can perpetuate in the motion of the ball, i.e. the hook phase of ball motion, is increased or decreased by the rev rate. How long the core has before the ball hits the pins is determined by speed. If the bowler has a very high rev rate compared to the speed, then the core can stabilize very quickly before the ball hits the pins. With a very low rev rate compared to speed, the ball will more than likely hit the pins before the core can stabilize.

Also please consider the influence of speed over time, the ball will slow down and rev up as it encounters friction. This is why we look at speed off hand instead of speed at the pins, because the ball has often lost 1-3 mph at the pins. Additionally, how the speed at the pins is measured greatly influences that measurement. If the ball is moving anything other than straight through the sensors, the speed will be under represented, due to the nature of point to point speed sensors. I.E. my speed off my hand could always be 16.75mph, but it might be as high as 16.25mph throwing straight at the head pin, and as low as 15.25 if I'm hooking the ball on a high flaring ball near the sensor.

Your grasp of math seems to indicate an understanding of physics. Please forgive me for dumbing down my explanations as my education in math and physics is many years behind me.
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Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant

Post by MWhite »

TH58PZ700U wrote: I believe you missed the point JohnP made: the ball skids in the oil.
JohnP made two points, I addressed the first point where I wasn't considering a real axis tilt. His reasoning simply made the chart worse.
This means the ball can have whatever rev rate it wants and whatever speed it wants and it wont matter, the oil inhibits the mechanical and chemical friction of the coverstock and the inertia of the core does not impart any change of movement to the ball.
Ok no problem, it's allowed to start off with "under rev" or "over rev" you aren't talking about it matching while in the oil.
The matching term does not refer to a mathematical match.


Oh no, now you're getting all Steven Wright on me. His blue sock matches his red sock because he goes by thickness.
It refers to a match of the speed to the rev rate as compared to the characteristics of reaction and the modern bowling environment. The amount of change the core can perpetuate in the motion of the ball, i.e. the hook phase of ball motion, is increased or decreased by the rev rate. How long the core has before the ball hits the pins is determined by speed. If the bowler has a very high rev rate compared to the speed, then the core can stabilize very quickly before the ball hits the pins. With a very low rev rate compared to speed, the ball will more than likely hit the pins before the core can stabilize.

Also please consider the influence of speed over time, the ball will slow down and rev up as it encounters friction. This is why we look at speed off hand instead of speed at the pins, because the ball has often lost 1-3 mph at the pins.
OK so a speed dominant ball will have what I refer to as an "under rev" condition, and a rev dominant ball can also have what I refer to as an "under rev" condition.
Additionally, how the speed at the pins is measured greatly influences that measurement. If the ball is moving anything other than straight through the sensors, the speed will be under represented, due to the nature of point to point speed sensors. I.E. my speed off my hand could always be 16.75mph, but it might be as high as 16.25mph throwing straight at the head pin, and as low as 15.25 if I'm hooking the ball on a high flaring ball near the sensor.
Ok, so this scientific process relies on an inexact measuring device.
Your grasp of math seems to indicate an understanding of physics. Please forgive me for dumbing down my explanations as my education in math and physics is many years behind me.
Trying to reconcile the chart with your description.

A ball with thrown at 16 mph with 200 rpm (speed dominant) will slow down (potentially) to 13 mph, and rev up to at least 508 rpm before hitting the pins (what I call a match). So the trick is selecting a ball that is capable of such a transition???

Likewise at 16mph and 300 rpm (rev dominant) will slow down but not as much as the previous example, and therefore will have to rev up to a higher amount. So same trick, just different criteria????

It still sounds like the chart numbers are to quote Don Cheadle in House of Lies.. F.M.A.
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Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant

Post by LabRat »

Mr White,
It seems there is a misunderstanding over what bowlers term 'matched' vs your interpretation of the word. Matched does not mean the ball is leaving the hand with the track travelling at the same speed (matched) as the ball is travelling down the lane. In fact, this woud on most lane conditions be very detrimental to your game. It simply means that the bowler has a rev rate and ball speed combination that allows him to match up well to a variety of 'normal' lane conditions using 'normal' layouts and gear. Bowlers that are matched with speed and revs will all get a similar look from their benchmark ball on a given shot in that they will transition correctly, getting the ball into a roll at the correct distance down the lane to carry well. Bowlers that are speed dominant as per the chart will struggle to get the ball into a roll consistently, and will need layout and or surface help to get the ball into a roll sooner - the reverse is true for a rev dominant bowler. Hope this helps.
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Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant

Post by MWhite »

LabRat wrote:Mr White,
It seems there is a misunderstanding over what bowlers term 'matched' vs your interpretation of the word. Matched does not mean the ball is leaving the hand with the track travelling at the same speed (matched) as the ball is travelling down the lane. In fact, this woud on most lane conditions be very detrimental to your game. It simply means that the bowler has a rev rate and ball speed combination that allows him to match up well to a variety of 'normal' lane conditions using 'normal' layouts and gear. Bowlers that are matched with speed and revs will all get a similar look from their benchmark ball on a given shot in that they will transition correctly, getting the ball into a roll at the correct distance down the lane to carry well. Bowlers that are speed dominant as per the chart will struggle to get the ball into a roll consistently, and will need layout and or surface help to get the ball into a roll sooner - the reverse is true for a rev dominant bowler. Hope this helps.

Please explain to me how a ball thrown at 11 mph and 0 rpm is somehow matched up.
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Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant

Post by MegaMav »

0 RPM represents initial release.
A ball will rev up after it experiences additional friction at the end of the pattern.
You talented if you're able to deaden the ball like that.
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Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant

Post by MWhite »

MegaMav wrote:0 RPM represents initial release.
A ball will rev up after it experiences additional friction at the end of the pattern.
You talented if you're able to deaden the ball like that.

Thats what it will do, but how is that any kind of match?
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Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant

Post by MathIsTruth »

I think this thread is getting out of hand. The goal is to obtain an idea about the bowlers initial release, the relationship of ball speed to rev rate. The chart is a guide to determine whether a bowler is more speed dominant or more rev dominant. Thats it.... I believe Mo defined the numbers in the chart to have something to work from.
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Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant

Post by Mo Pinel »

MathIsTruth wrote:I think this thread is getting out of hand. The goal is to obtain an idea about the bowlers initial release, the relationship of ball speed to rev rate. The chart is a guide to determine whether a bowler is more speed dominant or more rev dominant. Thats it.... I believe Mo defined the numbers in the chart to have something to work from.
YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!!! IT'S INITIAL REV RATE vs INITIAL BALL SPEED THAT DETERMINES THE PLAYER'S CATEGORY. LET'S STICK TO THAT PREMISE.
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Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant

Post by MWhite »

Mo Pinel wrote: YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!!! IT'S INITIAL REV RATE vs INITIAL BALL SPEED THAT DETERMINES THE PLAYER'S CATEGORY. LET'S STICK TO THAT PREMISE.
Can you explain what differences are occurring between a hypothetical set of bowlers that puts them in separate categories?

A) 17 mph, 200 RPM
B) 17 mph, 300 RPM
C) 17 mph, 400 RPM

For any parameters missing, assume values that help to clarify, and assume all three have the same parameters excluding RPM.
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Re: Rev dominant vs speed dominant

Post by kellytehuna »

I would think the answer to that particular question is obvious. If we assume all three bowlers are throwing the same ball, with the same layout and surface preparation, with the same release stats on the same condition and playing the same line:

If Bowler A is lined up and in the pocket, Bowler B will be through the beak, and Bowler C will cross over every time.

If Bowler B is lined up and in the pocket, Bowler A would tend to hit light pocket shots at best, and Bowler C will tend to go through the beak or cross over.

If Bowler C is lined up and in the pocket, Bowler A would likely be hitting the 3 pin in the face, and Bowler C will be hitting light at best.
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