Low tilt, high rotation, speed = revs

Which layout is right for me?

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MattInTheHat
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Positive Axis Point: 4 9/16 -> 15/16 ^
Speed: 17-17.5 off hand
Rev Rate: 270
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 75
Heavy Oil Ball: TR2
Medium Oil Ball: QZ1 / TX1
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Low tilt, high rotation, speed = revs

Post by MattInTheHat »

Sorry for the delay...can you imagine, customers who actually want me to do work! ;)

Here are the correct specs for my bowler:

Speed: 16mph (off hand)
Revs: 240
Axis Tilt: 7 degrees
Axis Rotation: 75-80 degrees

What I currently have him at and a couple of balls that I have drilled for him (based on my thinking prior to the last few days posts):

110 degrees +/- 20
Ratios of 2:1 - 1:2

Vibe - 50 x 5 1/4 x 50
TX1 - 60 x 4 3/4 x 45
Natural - 60 x 4 3/4 x 45

All layouts are pre-drilling, so have likely shifted some since they are all symmetrical balls. I don't remember if / where I put the balance holes as I did most of these many months ago.
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Re: Low tilt, high rotation, speed = revs

Post by elgavachon »

MattInTheHat wrote:Sorry for the delay...can you imagine, customers who actually want me to do work! ;)

Here are the correct specs for my bowler:

Speed: 16mph (off hand)
Revs: 240
Axis Tilt: 7 degrees
Axis Rotation: 75-80 degrees

What I currently have him at and a couple of balls that I have drilled for him (based on my thinking prior to the last few days posts):

110 degrees +/- 20
Ratios of 2:1 - 1:2

Vibe - 50 x 5 1/4 x 50
TX1 - 60 x 4 3/4 x 45
Natural - 60 x 4 3/4 x 45

All layouts are pre-drilling, so have likely shifted some since they are all symmetrical balls. I don't remember if / where I put the balance holes as I did most of these many months ago.
on the other post, I guessed 55* 3 1/4 40* on an assymmetrical ball. Mo usually raises the drilling angle 5* from what I have seen on symmetrical equiptment. You are using fairly long pin to pap on his symmetrical drillings which should be almost the same as my guess. My only guess now would be to go to the +30 side of the sweetspot.
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kellytehuna
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Positive Axis Point: 3.75", 1" up
Speed: 18
Rev Rate: 480
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 40
Heavy Oil Ball: Morich DestroyR
Medium Oil Ball: Morich Perpetual Motion
Light Oil Ball: Morich Mojave
Preferred Company: Morich
Location: Hazard, KY

Re: Low tilt, high rotation, speed = revs

Post by kellytehuna »

speed/revs = matched, so baseline total = 95°
tilt is low, but rotation extremely high, making him like a speed dominant bowler, so reduce total by 20° and set the baseline ratio at 1:1 - 1:2 with longer pins on Asym (between 3 - 4 on syms), so we're looking at 75° total, with ratios between 1:1 and 1:2

That would put the benchmark layout at around 30° / 4.5" / 45° asymmetrical, 40° / 3.5" / 45° symmetrical. Somewhere around there :) I hope... ;)
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Re: Low tilt, high rotation, speed = revs

Post by Mo Pinel »

kellytehuna wrote:speed/revs = matched, so baseline total = 95°
tilt is low, but rotation extremely high, making him like a speed dominant bowler, so reduce total by 20° and set the baseline ratio at 1:1 - 1:2 with longer pins on Asym (between 3 - 4 on syms), so we're looking at 75° total, with ratios between 1:1 and 1:2

That would put the benchmark layout at around 30° / 4.5" / 45° asymmetrical, 40° / 3.5" / 45° symmetrical. Somewhere around there :) I hope... ;)
Everything looks great until I look at the angle ratio. I like 50 / 3 1/4/ 30.
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kellytehuna
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Positive Axis Point: 3.75", 1" up
Speed: 18
Rev Rate: 480
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 40
Heavy Oil Ball: Morich DestroyR
Medium Oil Ball: Morich Perpetual Motion
Light Oil Ball: Morich Mojave
Preferred Company: Morich
Location: Hazard, KY

Re: Low tilt, high rotation, speed = revs

Post by kellytehuna »

Hmmmm... I would have thought you would want to get a little earlier roll with that much rotation vs tilt? What did I overlook?
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MattInTheHat
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Positive Axis Point: 4 9/16 -> 15/16 ^
Speed: 17-17.5 off hand
Rev Rate: 270
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 75
Heavy Oil Ball: TR2
Medium Oil Ball: QZ1 / TX1
Light Oil Ball: RX1
Preferred Company: Motiv
Location: TX

Re: Low tilt, high rotation, speed = revs

Post by MattInTheHat »

And I was thinking a higher VAL angle to keep the 2nd transition from being too jumpy? I'm guessing the pin to PAP distance is helping to smooth it out, but still would have though a higher VAL angle like Kelly did.
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Re: Low tilt, high rotation, speed = revs

Post by elgavachon »

I was actually really close with my guess this time. I added five degrees to both the drilling and the val angles because of the problems the bowler was having (even with his natural)
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Re: Low tilt, high rotation, speed = revs

Post by elgavachon »

kellytehuna wrote:Hmmmm... I would have thought you would want to get a little earlier roll with that much rotation vs tilt? What did I overlook?
I imagine you are asking Mo. I will give you my ideas in case they might help. I just found these posts with less than 10* tilt:
Dwayne1009

3*-7* tilt
90* rotation
slight speed dominant Frenzy 65* 3 1/4 25* P3 (I'll bet for dryer lanes)

Wuzlow

10* tilt
45-60 rotation
17 hand
250 revs 110 sweet benchmark=70* 4 30* (I double checked because it don't add up),but check the pin.

Elgavachon

10* tilt
20* rotation
20 hand
250 revs 75* 3.25 25* P3

Motogp69
3* tilt
45* rotation
18.5 hand
450 revs Craze 75* 3 40* P2
Mania 60* 3 1/4 30 P3

Barnes
4* tilt
45 * rotation
22 hand
???? 55* 3 1/4 20 P 3.5
edited for an after the fact guess and more clarity:I think Mo uses 100 for total sums with equal speed/revs. If you subtract 20* for extreme rotation, you get 80* for total sums. Keeping sums equal you adjust ratio.
(I know your thoughts always help to clarify it for me.)
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=450" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'll bet Mo did both: subtracted from drilling angle and added to the val angle. I bet he was thinking 60* 3 1/4 20*(he likes that ratio on low tiltl) and then subtracted 10*from the drilling angle and added 10* to the val angle(because of the rotation). Just guessing after the fact though.
Sorry Mo if I am putting words in your mouth. I sometimes feel like we are a bunch of kindergarten kids learning simple math and you guys have your P.H.D. s in college. You want a 5+5 reaction and you don't even think about it. It is just 10. we are here counting on our fingers and questioning why it comes out. Thanks for you patience and help.
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kellytehuna
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Positive Axis Point: 3.75", 1" up
Speed: 18
Rev Rate: 480
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 40
Heavy Oil Ball: Morich DestroyR
Medium Oil Ball: Morich Perpetual Motion
Light Oil Ball: Morich Mojave
Preferred Company: Morich
Location: Hazard, KY

Re: Low tilt, high rotation, speed = revs

Post by kellytehuna »

That makes sense. I'm just a little lost as to how to manage low tilt vs high rotation. I figured it was more important to burn off the tilt than maintain the tilt. Then to think about it again, its more important to maintain the tilt as long as possible, since most bowlers tend to change their rotation to suit their reaction requirements. I'm getting there... just need to learn the applications of this stuff a little better.

Thanks for putting that stuff out there by the way. Working through that helped a little with clarification of thought.
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Re: Low tilt, high rotation, speed = revs

Post by Mo Pinel »

MattInTheHat wrote:And I was thinking a higher VAL angle to keep the 2nd transition from being too jumpy? I'm guessing the pin to PAP distance is helping to smooth it out, but still would have though a higher VAL angle like Kelly did.

Mo said:
Everything looks great until I look at the angle ratio. I like 50 / 3 1/4/ 30.

Lot's of good discussion here. Most of my requests seem to involve low tilt players looking for continuation. I wanted a sum of 80* with a 1.7:1 ratio to control the snap. The math comes out this way. If he had less rotation, I would have gone with a larger angle ratio between 2 and 3 to 1. The 3 1/4" pin to PAP distance will help retain axis rotation and tilt and help him cover more boards. I was keying in on the low tilt.
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kellytehuna
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Posts: 2891
Joined: January 18th, 2010, 11:11 pm
THS Average: 195
Positive Axis Point: 3.75", 1" up
Speed: 18
Rev Rate: 480
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 40
Heavy Oil Ball: Morich DestroyR
Medium Oil Ball: Morich Perpetual Motion
Light Oil Ball: Morich Mojave
Preferred Company: Morich
Location: Hazard, KY

Re: Low tilt, high rotation, speed = revs

Post by kellytehuna »

Interesting. So in every case, the ratio is keyed off of the tilt, unless tilt is "normal" and rotation is high/low, in which case we key on the rotation?

I think I've got the selection of total angles down pretty well. There is still some fine tuning to be made of how to handle the relationship between tilt and rotation. I think the discussions here have been great in clearing up a few conceptual things for me. :) Me likey, likey!
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MattInTheHat
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Joined: January 21st, 2010, 3:33 pm
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Positive Axis Point: 4 9/16 -> 15/16 ^
Speed: 17-17.5 off hand
Rev Rate: 270
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 75
Heavy Oil Ball: TR2
Medium Oil Ball: QZ1 / TX1
Light Oil Ball: RX1
Preferred Company: Motiv
Location: TX

Re: Low tilt, high rotation, speed = revs

Post by MattInTheHat »

Thanks again everyone for this discussion. I'm currently updating my dual angle reference with some additional bowler examples, and was wondering about the "questionable" Angle Sums info mentioned in another post that says in part:
High axis tilt would lower the center of the range, while high axis rotation would raise the center of the range.
Is this accurate, or does it need to be removed? This should be removed.


Also, one of the new bowler examples had me confused for a minute (ok, I'm always confused). The bowler is speed dominant but has low axis tilt (7°) and low rotation (30°). Mo recommended 65° x 5" x 45° for a THS (didn't specifically say it was a benchmark layout, but I'm assuming this to be true), based on that this bowlers sweet spot is 110 (again no sweet spot was specified). I found a number of other recommended layouts for this bowler and based on those have come up with a 2:1 - 1:1 ratio and range of 80° - 140°. When I first did the math I thought that seemed like a rather high sweet spot for a speed dominant bowler, but looking through my notes (which I hope are more accurate now!) I have:
Lower drilling sum slightly for high Axis Tilt
Lower drilling sum more for high Axis Tilt & high Axis Rotation
(helps ball get into transition quicker)
What I don't have is anything specific about raising the sum for low axis tilt, or raising it more for low axis tilt & low rotation, and I know that just because it works one way (as quoted above) doesn't necessarily mean it works the other way. But based on the previous bowler example it looks like this is the case...is this correct? Or is the THS layout not meant to be a benchmark, and this bowler should have a lower sweet spot more in line with that of a speed dominant bowler?
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Re: Low tilt, high rotation, speed = revs

Post by Mo Pinel »

MattInTheHat wrote:Thanks again everyone for this discussion. I'm currently updating my dual angle reference with some additional bowler examples, and was wondering about the "questionable" Angle Sums info mentioned in another post that says in part:
Is this accurate, or does it need to be removed? This should be removed.


Also, one of the new bowler examples had me confused for a minute (ok, I'm always confused). The bowler is speed dominant but has low axis tilt (7°) and low rotation (30°). Mo recommended 65° x 5" x 45° for a THS (didn't specifically say it was a benchmark layout, but I'm assuming this to be true), based on that this bowlers sweet spot is 110 (again no sweet spot was specified). I found a number of other recommended layouts for this bowler and based on those have come up with a 2:1 - 1:1 ratio and range of 80° - 140°. When I first did the math I thought that seemed like a rather high sweet spot for a speed dominant bowler, but looking through my notes (which I hope are more accurate now!) I have:
What I don't have is anything specific about raising the sum for low axis tilt, or raising it more for low axis tilt & low rotation, and I know that just because it works one way (as quoted above) doesn't necessarily mean it works the other way. But based on the previous bowler example it looks like this is the case...is this correct? Or is the THS layout not meant to be a benchmark, and this bowler should have a lower sweet spot more in line with that of a speed dominant bowler?

That layout is definitely for a wet, dry THS because of the pin to PAP distance. If I have all the info, his benchmark layout should be: 75 / 3 1/4 / 25 for a real oil pattern. Hope this helps.
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MattInTheHat
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Posts: 420
Joined: January 21st, 2010, 3:33 pm
THS Average: 201
Positive Axis Point: 4 9/16 -> 15/16 ^
Speed: 17-17.5 off hand
Rev Rate: 270
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 75
Heavy Oil Ball: TR2
Medium Oil Ball: QZ1 / TX1
Light Oil Ball: RX1
Preferred Company: Motiv
Location: TX

Re: Low tilt, high rotation, speed = revs

Post by MattInTheHat »

Thanks!
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