Ball and layout advice.

Which layout is right for me?

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StormFreak5552
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Speed: 13 mph
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Ball and layout advice.

Post by StormFreak5552 »

Hello. I just went to a National tournament and found a shot that i did not have any release or ball to combat. It was a extreme wet/dry from being a heavy oil in the middle to bone dry 9 board and out. All the balls and releases i tried hit like a sack of turds. I was thinking about buying a very long and snappy drilled virtual energy to help me out on these patterns as i know their putting out the same ones next tournament. Any suggestions?
Righty, 350 rpm, 15-16 mph (13 qubica), AR 30-35*, AT 7*,
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cgeorg
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Re: Ball and layout advice.

Post by cgeorg »

I suggest that you post your:

Ball Speed
Rev Rate
Axis Tilt
Axis Rotation

If you want a good answer from the knowledgeable folks here.
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Mo Pinel
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Re: Ball and layout advice.

Post by Mo Pinel »

cgeorg wrote:I suggest that you post your:

Ball Speed
Rev Rate
Axis Tilt
Axis Rotation

If you want a good answer from the knowledgeable folks here.
Good call! Thanks for the help!
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StormFreak5552
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Speed: 13 mph
Rev Rate: 350
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Axis Rotation: 30
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Light Oil Ball: Freeze (coming soon)
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Ball and layout advice.

Post by StormFreak5552 »

13 mph
350 rpm
30-35 degrees axis tilt
Like to play down and in or a small belly shot.
Need it to go looong but still be able to bite a bit in the dry.
Righty, 350 rpm, 15-16 mph (13 qubica), AR 30-35*, AT 7*,
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Re: Ball and layout advice.

Post by elgavachon »

30* to 35* is a lot of tilt. Are you sure you are not looking at rotation? here is a chart which shows the two
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... ltball.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
you can also measure the oil ring closest to your span across the ball and for every 1/2 inch less than 13 1/2 inches, you have 3.33 degrees of tilt.
StormFreak5552
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Joined: April 16th, 2010, 11:09 pm
Speed: 13 mph
Rev Rate: 350
Axis Tilt: tbd
Axis Rotation: 30
Heavy Oil Ball: Virtual Energy (coming soon)
Medium Oil Ball: Furious
Light Oil Ball: Freeze (coming soon)
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Ball and layout advice.

Post by StormFreak5552 »

Well put it this way. I probably am confusing the both of them. My track is pretty much straight over the ball near the middle finger. (eg. |oo)

Your probably right but I think you get what I'm saying.
Righty, 350 rpm, 15-16 mph (13 qubica), AR 30-35*, AT 7*,
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Re: Ball and layout advice.

Post by TheBallDoc »

Mr Freak are you from fl.
18.5-19mph Off hand, 10° at, 40°-50° ar, 400RPMs, Ball speed Rev Rate are even, if anything iam a little speed dominant. avg. 198 pbax, avg. 236 ths.
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Re: Ball and layout advice.

Post by Mo Pinel »

StormFreak5552 wrote:Well put it this way. I probably am confusing the both of them. My track is pretty much straight over the ball near the middle finger. (eg. |oo)

Your probably right but I think you get what I'm saying.
I'm glad you're here looking for help. There's lots of info here and people will help you. You'll have to do a litle research if you want good accurate answers. Look at the first post on this thread and get ALL that info and the answers are here. Use the Wiki for some of the info. Attention to detail is the key factor in accurate answers. Hand grenades at 20 paces is not the answer and it's why the bowling industry is in the state it is.
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StormFreak5552
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Speed: 13 mph
Rev Rate: 350
Axis Tilt: tbd
Axis Rotation: 30
Heavy Oil Ball: Virtual Energy (coming soon)
Medium Oil Ball: Furious
Light Oil Ball: Freeze (coming soon)
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Ball and layout advice.

Post by StormFreak5552 »

Okay I've got it.

13mph
350 revs
axis rotation 30-35 degrees
Axis tilt about 5 degrees
Want it for synthetic
Mostly bowling on wood though
Rev dominant
Righty, 350 rpm, 15-16 mph (13 qubica), AR 30-35*, AT 7*,
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Re: Ball and layout advice.

Post by JohnP »

Mo's going to need to know if the 13 mph is off your hand or further down the lane (Qubica and others). -- JohnP
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kellytehuna
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Re: Ball and layout advice.

Post by kellytehuna »

Okay, Thanks for getting us that info. Here we go... :)

Thats EXTREME Rev dominance! Are you sure you're speed is correct? Is that at the pins or in the heads? Do you know?

Assuming your speed is correct, that puts your total around 130°. I'd dare say we could even get away with max angles of 160°!

You also have very low tilt and low rotation, so we'll need to use higher ratios with shorter pins (<3") to help keep your tilt and rotation as long as possible as well as help get you down lane due your rev/speed mismatch. I would say 3:1 - 2:1 would fit the bill well here.

That would put your benchmark layout at 90 / 2" / 40. I would say you could probably use a P1 hole also.

As always, it might be best to wait around for Mo's response, but I'm sure he will be in the same ball park - I hope :P
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kellytehuna
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Re: Ball and layout advice.

Post by kellytehuna »

If that is the speed in the heads, I would almost definitely go with max angles, now that I think about it a little more. Thats getting in to Tom Smallwood territory, I think. Isn't he around 14mph, 400+ rpm?
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MattCosta7
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Re: Ball and layout advice.

Post by MattCosta7 »

kellytehuna wrote:That would put your benchmark layout at 90 / 2" / 40. I would say you could probably use a P1 hole also.

As always, it might be best to wait around for Mo's response, but I'm sure he will be in the same ball park - I hope :P
If your speed is in the heads, I'ld bet even that will be too strong. You may even shorten the pin distance alittle below 2" (on assymetric cores). On symmetric cores you'll definitely want pins near 5" or more to get the breakpoint later and minimize flare. Possibly even approaching 6"

What do you have drilled already, just for an idea of what you're already using. Please provide layouts in Dual Angle form, as well as Xhole locations.

Since you're asking for ball advice, this will ensure we minimize overlap.
StormFreak5552
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Speed: 13 mph
Rev Rate: 350
Axis Tilt: tbd
Axis Rotation: 30
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Medium Oil Ball: Furious
Light Oil Ball: Freeze (coming soon)
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Ball and layout advice.

Post by StormFreak5552 »

That's 13 mph at the pins. Probably about 15 off my hand.

Truely, we have no drillers that know crap all about dual angle drilling. Canada eh?

I'm getting it drilled by buddies pro shop though so Chris should know what we're talking about.

I can get my speed up more if i want to. That speed above is just my comfort zone and what I love to play.

Oh and Chris said that he'd recommend a layout with a 4 1/2 in pin to pap.
Righty, 350 rpm, 15-16 mph (13 qubica), AR 30-35*, AT 7*,
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Re: Ball and layout advice.

Post by MattCosta7 »

StormFreak5552 wrote:That's 13 mph at the pins. Probably about 15 off my hand.

Truely, we have no drillers that know crap all about dual angle drilling. Canada eh?

I'm getting it drilled by buddies pro shop though so Chris should know what we're talking about.

I can get my speed up more if i want to. That speed above is just my comfort zone and what I love to play.

Oh and Chris said that he'd recommend a layout with a 4 1/2 in pin to pap.
for 13 at pins, you're probably 15-16 off your hand. 4.5" is fine for that. on assymetric balls you may like a smaller pin to pap (2.5-3") as this will help you get a little more length by retaining axis tilt a little longer. which is the exact same effect a 4.5 inch pin has on symmetric cores.

Chris is a great guy, and definitely knows what he's doing, as well as dual angle layouts.

If you know your PAP, and can measure the pin distances and placements in inches, it can still help to figure out what you need. Basically, what else are you throwing, and how are they laid out. (As detailed as you can be)
StormFreak5552
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Joined: April 16th, 2010, 11:09 pm
Speed: 13 mph
Rev Rate: 350
Axis Tilt: tbd
Axis Rotation: 30
Heavy Oil Ball: Virtual Energy (coming soon)
Medium Oil Ball: Furious
Light Oil Ball: Freeze (coming soon)
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Ball and layout advice.

Post by StormFreak5552 »

Lets see... I'll try and do this as quick and as painless as I can. ;)

Spit Fire - drilled stacked under ring finger
Furious - drilled control, pin under ring finger cg in the palm
Fuze Eliminator - Pin up, Very condition specific. Cg kicked out slightly
Gravity Shift - Just got chewed up by the machine. It's pretty much dead. No need to go farther into this one.

I've never really worked with surfaces so all are OOB.

That's about the quick analysis of my line-up, no real long balls though.
Furious has been my go-to this year.

And now that I went to league today and looked at tilt it's around 8 degrees.
Righty, 350 rpm, 15-16 mph (13 qubica), AR 30-35*, AT 7*,
MattCosta7
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Re: Ball and layout advice.

Post by MattCosta7 »

any idea of your axis point?
StormFreak5552
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Posts: 25
Joined: April 16th, 2010, 11:09 pm
Speed: 13 mph
Rev Rate: 350
Axis Tilt: tbd
Axis Rotation: 30
Heavy Oil Ball: Virtual Energy (coming soon)
Medium Oil Ball: Furious
Light Oil Ball: Freeze (coming soon)
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Ball and layout advice.

Post by StormFreak5552 »

Pap is somewhere around 5 -51/2 right.
I have to check soon, I beleive i got a tourney tomorrow and could check after that.

And i just looked at the axis tilt and rotation picture. My tilt would actually be around 65-70. I've always went straight over the top is 0... That picture it's 90. Would a video be beneficial?
Righty, 350 rpm, 15-16 mph (13 qubica), AR 30-35*, AT 7*,
elgavachon
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Re: Ball and layout advice.

Post by elgavachon »

if I read this right, your corrected specs are

15 mph off hand
350 revs
8* axis tilt
65-70* axis rotation

I don't really think these new specs will change the layout any. I would really be surprised if Mo is very far off from Kelly and Matt.
MattCosta7
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Heavy Oil Ball: Mania 40* x 4.25" x 30* P3.5 1000 Sia
Medium Oil Ball: Evil Siege 45 x 4 x 35* 2000
Light Oil Ball: Cherry Vibe 50* x 4.5" x 45* P2 4000 + FF + Extender
Preferred Company: MoRich, Hammer, Roto, Bruns
Location: Dobbs Ferry, NY

Re: Ball and layout advice.

Post by MattCosta7 »

StormFreak5552 wrote:Pap is somewhere around 5 -51/2 right.
I have to check soon, I beleive i got a tourney tomorrow and could check after that.

And i just looked at the axis tilt and rotation picture. My tilt would actually be around 65-70. I've always went straight over the top is 0... That picture it's 90. Would a video be beneficial?
If the ball rolls parallel to the gutter (end over end), it's 0 degrees axis rotation.

If the ball roll going from 1 gutter toward the other, this is 90* axis rotation.

Axis tilt of 65-75 degrees means your ball spins more like a top than it rolls. Please clarify your numbers, and be sure they are accurate. A few degrees off in tilt, can change a layout dramatically.

Get your axis rotation figured out as well. 30 degrees means the ball is rolling more in the direction of the pins than in the direction of the gutter AT RELEASE.
70 degrees axis rotation means the ball is rolling more toward the gutter at release, than toward the pins.
Once the ball gets down the lane, assuming there's friction, the balls should both be rolling toward the pins)

Watch this! it should clear up some of your understanding
Axis Tilt Measuring

You can substitute a string for a prosect, just make sure you're at the widest point.
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