Rotation or Tilt - which losses first....

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dtb300
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Rotation or Tilt - which losses first....

Post by dtb300 » January 11th, 2012, 8:12 pm

I have spent the last hour searching and reading....but I cannot find it. I have read threads on Ball Physics, Pin migration, and the Wiki on Ball Motion Studies (maybe I missed it here), etc. etc. And I thought I remember reading it somewhere...

Which burns off first, Axis Rotation, or Axis Tilt?

It may not be a simple this or that answer, but thought I would ask.

Mo always mentions about people with Low Tilt bowlers looking for Ball Reaction.

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kellytehuna
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Re: Rotation or Tilt - which losses first....

Post by kellytehuna » January 11th, 2012, 8:33 pm

Rotation bleeds off MUCH faster than tilt. I forget the specifics, but rotation burns off due to friction, while tilt burns is affected more by gravity.
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Re: Rotation or Tilt - which losses first....

Post by BCP27 » January 12th, 2012, 1:54 am

kellytehuna wrote:Rotation bleeds off MUCH faster than tilt. I forget the specifics, but rotation burns off due to friction, while tilt burns is affected more by gravity.
This becomes very obvious when you bowl on lanes without oil. The ball will maintain its tilt for a long amount of time, but the rotation drops to equal the tilt extremely quickly. This is why the spinner style emerged in Asian countries where people bowled at places that oiled the lanes once a week.....with very little oil.

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Re: Rotation or Tilt - which losses first....

Post by elgavachon » January 12th, 2012, 2:25 am

I think I heard that asymmetrical balls will lose tilt later but faster and lose more of it. Symmetrical balls start losing tilt sooner, (but slower), and it doesn't get as low. I couldn't find where I picked this up. Maybe someone who understands what I am saying, can clarify it.

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Re: Rotation or Tilt - which losses first....

Post by Triplicate » January 12th, 2012, 4:19 am

dtb300 wrote:I have spent the last hour searching and reading....but I cannot find it. I have read threads on Ball Physics, Pin migration, and the Wiki on Ball Motion Studies (maybe I missed it here), etc. etc. And I thought I remember reading it somewhere...

Which burns off first, Axis Rotation, or Axis Tilt?

It may not be a simple this or that answer, but thought I would ask.

Mo always mentions about people with Low Tilt bowlers looking for Ball Reaction.
Is the objective here to get matched up on the lanes better in order to strike? :?
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Re: Rotation or Tilt - which losses first....

Post by elgavachon » January 12th, 2012, 4:29 am

Triplicate wrote: Is the objective here to get matched up on the lanes better in order to strike? :?
Sorry. edit: I am blurring two topics together. I was saying that from what I can remember,
the roll phase happens at a lower tilt with an asymmetrical ball than with a symmetrical. Wrong topic here.

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Re: Rotation or Tilt - which losses first....

Post by Mo Pinel » January 13th, 2012, 10:32 pm

dtb300 wrote:I have spent the last hour searching and reading....but I cannot find it. I have read threads on Ball Physics, Pin migration, and the Wiki on Ball Motion Studies (maybe I missed it here), etc. etc. And I thought I remember reading it somewhere...

Which burns off first, Axis Rotation, or Axis Tilt?

It may not be a simple this or that answer, but thought I would ask.

Mo always mentions about people with Low Tilt bowlers looking for Ball Reaction.

I'll try to make this plain. All balls are delivered with more axis rotation than tilt. Cannot be any other way. The laws of physics dictate that. The ball loses both rotation and tilt. The ball loses rotation faster than it loses tilt until tilt = rotation. That occurs at the second transition. FACT! During the roll phase (after the second transition) the ball loses rotation and tilt at the same rate until the ball hits the pins. That should keep your mind busy for a while.

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Re: Rotation or Tilt - which losses first....

Post by JohnP » January 13th, 2012, 11:04 pm

Mo - Will you comment on the discussion in this topic?

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4772" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Rotation or Tilt - which losses first....

Post by Mo Pinel » January 13th, 2012, 11:14 pm

JohnP wrote:Mo - Will you comment on the discussion in this topic?

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4772" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
When I get a chance ot read that in detail. As far as I've known, AXIS ROTATION MUST BE > OR EQUAL TO AXIS TILT AT ANY POINT DURING THE BALL ROLL! ALSO, ROTATION CANNOT INCREASE AS THE BALL GOES DOWN THE LANE.

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Re: Rotation or Tilt - which losses first....

Post by Triplicate » January 14th, 2012, 1:06 am

dtb300 wrote:I have spent the last hour searching and reading....but I cannot find it. I have read threads on Ball Physics, Pin migration, and the Wiki on Ball Motion Studies (maybe I missed it here), etc. etc. And I thought I remember reading it somewhere...

Which burns off first, Axis Rotation, or Axis Tilt?

It may not be a simple this or that answer, but thought I would ask.

Mo always mentions about people with Low Tilt bowlers looking for Ball Reaction.
I'm curious why you ask?

BTW... I'm Low Tilt and I have no issues with ball reactions. :)

I can use any rotation I need to from 20 thru 90 to get matched up. My only problem is carry and who doesn't have that issue? Ringing Tens (seldom weak), Stone Eights and Nines, Solid 4's (some with the 9) account for over 90% of my leaves. :(
High Game - 300 (20), 299 (10), 298 (2), 11 in a row (18)
High Series - (278 Triplicate) = 834 (9)
HOF induction - 2 (1 Local and 1 Provincial)
Is this helpful? Then Click the Image on the bottom right.

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kellytehuna
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Re: Rotation or Tilt - which losses first....

Post by kellytehuna » January 14th, 2012, 2:11 am

Triplicate wrote: I'm curious why you ask?

BTW... I'm Low Tilt and I have no issues with ball reactions. :)

I can use any rotation I need to from 20 thru 90 to get matched up. My only problem is carry and who doesn't have that issue? Ringing Tens (seldom weak), Stone Eights and Nines, Solid 4's (some with the 9) account for over 90% of my leaves. :(
That may be the case, but you are also one of the few that can change your tilt that much. Also, you've been bowling longer than some of us have been on the planet! Most house bowlers (and lets not kid ourselves, most bowlers are house bowlers) do not have the level of versatility you possess, so it makes more sense to help them get in to a range of stats that make it easier for them to have more manageable reactions, front to back. If all bowlers were able to make the adjustments you can, our job would be MUCH easier!
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Re: Rotation or Tilt - which losses first....

Post by Triplicate » January 14th, 2012, 2:46 am

Yes I have a wide range of Rotations available to me not to mention a whole lot of experience. I can't change my tilt much but I'm fine with that since I like where it is now. ;)

I'm trying to help by getting to the issue but I'm not understanding what this issue is. (if in fact there is one) Maybe this is just a search for answers to question for curiosity purposes on tilt vs rotation.

If there's a question relative to issues on the lanes then I'm not hearing the question. Thus my curiosity about this topic. :)
High Game - 300 (20), 299 (10), 298 (2), 11 in a row (18)
High Series - (278 Triplicate) = 834 (9)
HOF induction - 2 (1 Local and 1 Provincial)
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Re: Rotation or Tilt - which losses first....

Post by BCP27 » January 14th, 2012, 3:11 am

Mo Pinel wrote:FACT! During the roll phase (after the second transition) the ball loses rotation and tilt at the same rate until the ball hits the pins. That should keep your mind busy for a while.
So does that mean gravity overpowers friction, or does friction just cause axis tilt to lower faster than previously once the rotation equals the tilt?

Also, as far as low tilt goes, don't a lot of successful tour players have lower tilt? Looking at the above comments, it would seem that their ability to change rotation and speed must compensate for that quite a bit.

dtb300
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Re: Rotation or Tilt - which losses first....

Post by dtb300 » January 14th, 2012, 3:21 am

Mo Pinel wrote:I'll try to make this plain.
Good...just looking for a simple answer and why....
Mo Pinel wrote:........... The ball loses rotation faster than it loses tilt until tilt = rotation. That occurs at the second transition. FACT!
There we go, the answer. Cool.
Triplicate wrote:I'm trying to help by getting to the issue but I'm not understanding what this issue is. (if in fact there is one) Maybe this is just a search for answers to question for curiosity purposes on tilt vs rotation.
I think you may be reading into the post too much. I just wanted to know which losses first and why - nothing more. Mo covered it as you see above.

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