Mo, Question about drill layout for Frenzy and Craze

Which layout is right for me?

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Wuzlow
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Mo, Question about drill layout for Frenzy and Craze

Post by Wuzlow »

Hi Mo,

I have a guy who buying a Frenzy and a Craze from my pro shop. He owns an old matrix, and wants more hook than what he has now. I was curious if you let me know some recommended layouts for the two balls so they are good combo for him? Here are his specs!

Speed: 18mph
PAP: 5 5/16 over by 1 5/16 up
Axis Tilt: 7 degrees
Axis rotation: Approx 70 degrees
Rev rate: 200

Oh and he is right handed by the way, Thanks for your time!

Tom
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Re: Mo, Question about drill layout for Frenzy and Craze

Post by Mo Pinel »

Wuzlow wrote:Hi Mo,

I have a guy who buying a Frenzy and a Craze from my pro shop. He owns an old matrix, and wants more hook than what he has now. I was curious if you let me know some recommended layouts for the two balls so they are good combo for him? Here are his specs!

Speed: 18mph
PAP: 5 5/16 over by 1 5/16 up
Axis Tilt: 7 degrees
Axis rotation: Approx 70 degrees
Rev rate: 200

Oh and he is right handed by the way, Thanks for your time!

Tom
These layouts will work well as a combo:
Craze- 55 / 4 / 35 with a P2 hole
mania- 55/ 3 1/4 / 25 with a P3 hole
Start with factory surface and tune from there.

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Re: Mo, Question about drill layout for Frenzy and Craze

Post by elgavachon »

Mo said:

These layouts will work well as a combo:
Craze- 55 / 4 / 35 with a P2 hole
mania- 55/ 3 1/4 / 25 with a P3 hole
Start with factory surface and tune from there.

Thanks for the support of MoRich!


Mo , What kind of a reaction difference would you expect from a mania drilled 55 3 1/4 25 with a P3 hole as compared to a dual thumb if your drilling angle on the dual thumb was 55*?

thanks
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Re: Mo, Question about drill layout for Frenzy and Craze

Post by Mo Pinel »

elgavachon wrote:Mo said:

These layouts will work well as a combo:
Craze- 55 / 4 / 35 with a P2 hole
mania- 55/ 3 1/4 / 25 with a P3 hole
Start with factory surface and tune from there.

Thanks for the support of MoRich!


Mo , What kind of a reaction difference would you expect from a mania drilled 55 3 1/4 25 with a P3 hole as compared to a dual thumb if your drilling angle on the dual thumb was 55*?

thanks
The P3 hole will make the difference as opposed to the "Double Thumb" balance hole location.

The key factor is your 70* of axis rotation in conjunction with 7* of tilt. We're getting into PDW territory. The P3 hole will help control possible overreaction and make the ball more controllable, but still very strong.
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Re: Mo, Question about drill layout for Frenzy and Craze

Post by Wuzlow »

Mo Pinel wrote: These layouts will work well as a combo:
Craze- 55 / 4 / 35 with a P2 hole
mania- 55/ 3 1/4 / 25 with a P3 hole
Start with factory surface and tune from there.

Thanks for the support of MoRich!
Thanks for the response Mo! I do have only one quick question though, The guy didn't buy a mania, but a frenzy and a craze. Should I use the suggested craze layout on the frenzy and the suggested mania layout for the craze? Or because of the Frenzy/craze combo, would you change the layout from what you had responded to?

Also, I am a big supporter of what you do and your ball line! I always suggest your products to everyone who come by looking for a new bowling ball at the shop!
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Re: Mo, Question about drill layout for Frenzy and Craze

Post by Mo Pinel »

Wuzlow wrote: Thanks for the response Mo! I do have only one quick question though, The guy didn't buy a mania, but a frenzy and a craze. Should I use the suggested craze layout on the frenzy and the suggested mania layout for the craze? Or because of the Frenzy/craze combo, would you change the layout from what you had responded to?

Also, I am a big supporter of what you do and your ball line! I always suggest your products to everyone who come by looking for a new bowling ball at the shop!
My mistake by including a mania. Sorry! You are right use the mania layout for the Craze and the Craze layout for the FRENZY.

Thanks for your support of MoRich. It is greatly appreciated. Have you signed up to be a CORE TECH member? CORE TECH membership is FREE!
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Re: Mo, Question about drill layout for Frenzy and Craze

Post by Wuzlow »

Hi Mo, I haven't signed up for the Core Tech membership yet. I'll look it up tonight!

Another question on your layouts for the info needed by bowlers (pap, axis tilt, etc.) How do you determine layouts with the bowlers specs? The reason I ask is many people ask about layout choices for bowling equipment, whether it is for themselves or for customers, friends, family or other people. I wondered if you had some sort of sheet showing some instances of layouts to info provided.

For example, I know I have 10 degrees of axis tilt and I throw 17 mph (digitrax). On the Axis tilt graph, it says to layout the ball to keep the tilt longer? I thought maybe you had some sort of paper of bowler spec instances for kind of a "follow this" kind of thing. Just curious!

Tom
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Re: Mo, Question about drill layout for Frenzy and Craze

Post by Mo Pinel »

Wuzlow wrote:Hi Mo, I haven't signed up for the Core Tech membership yet. I'll look it up tonight!

Another question on your layouts for the info needed by bowlers (pap, axis tilt, etc.) How do you determine layouts with the bowlers specs? The reason I ask is many people ask about layout choices for bowling equipment, whether it is for themselves or for customers, friends, family or other people. I wondered if you had some sort of sheet showing some instances of layouts to info provided.

For example, I know I have 10 degrees of axis tilt and I throw 17 mph (digitrax). On the Axis tilt graph, it says to layout the ball to keep the tilt longer? I thought maybe you had some sort of paper of bowler spec instances for kind of a "follow this" kind of thing. Just curious!

Tom

On the MoRich website is the article on "Dual Angles". In the article is a section on the effective use of "Dual Angle" layouts. The decision process is covered there. Assimilate that and then we can discuss this further.
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Positive Axis Point: 5" by 5/8'' up
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Re: Mo, Question about drill layout for Frenzy and Craze

Post by Wuzlow »

You told me to assimilate the Dual Angle method and get back to you. So, I've taken in the reading and I'm ready to give it a shot! I'll try this on myself. Here are my personal specs....

Ball Speed: 17mph (off my hand)
PAP: 5 1/2" by 1/4" up
Axis Tilt: 10 degrees
Axis Rotation: I can vary, but usually 45 to 60 degrees for the norm.
Rev Rate: 360
I'm right handed by the way.

I've got a C-System 3.5 that I'm looking to drill for use at Nationals and for fresh PBA Patterns (the beefier ones).

For the dual angle it says that smaller sums should be used for speed dominant, high axis, long and heavy oil patterns. While the larger sums are used for Rev dominant, low axis, short and lower volume patterns. Since what I'm looking for, and what my specs are, I would assume I need to find common ground between the two categories. So here is my thought on the 3.5.

I'll be bowling on the world championship pattern today in my PBA experience league, and I'm hoping to use this ball for that (since its 41 feet and loaded) and for nationals. Here is my thought on a layout for the 3.5.
Possibly a 40 x 4.5 x 30 with a P3? Am I even close?

Another question I have is I've seen you comment on some other people's posts about general layouts for asymmetrical and symmetrical equipment for the specs they have. Would you have some suggestions for me? Basically I'm looking for general layouts with a +/- degree "buffer" for what will work for me on my specs for both asymmetrical and symmetrical equipment? Do you have a few suggestions for each? Maybe for a THS and Lighter, medium, heavy oil patterns for the PBA Stuff?

I really appreciate your time, and any answers you can give me! Hope I wasn't too far off on my thought of drilling out the 3.5. Thanks you in advance!

Tom
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Re: Mo, Question about drill layout for Frenzy and Craze

Post by elgavachon »

you are quite rev dominant which will raise your total sums to around 120. With 10 degree tilt, 4.5 pins on assymmetrics would be too long. You need something to retain tilt.
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Re: Mo, Question about drill layout for Frenzy and Craze

Post by kellytehuna »

I was thinking the same thing. I was thinking something along the lines of 75 / 2.5 / 35 would fit the bill pretty well on asyms, and maybe 75 / 2.5 / 25 for syms at a guess. 17mph/360rpm is not HUGELY rev dominant, so 110 total with a 1.5:1 - 2:1 ratios should do you pretty good, I think.

We'll see what Mo has to say. :)
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Re: Mo, Question about drill layout for Frenzy and Craze

Post by elgavachon »

I think KellyTeHuna is on the right track. I had pins of 3 1/4 in mind when I said shorter pins on assymetricals as a benchmark ball. If your rotation is normally closer to 60*, I think Mo will decrease the ratios a little though. On drier patterns I think he will use 2 1/4 inch pins and probably 4 1/2 on symetrical for drier patterns. For oil drills I think you will be looking between 3-4. He will probably recommend a dual thumb for oil. I hate to guess exact numbers,but I was thinking dry assymetrical 80 2.5 40. for symmetrical 85 4 1/2 35 for dry. For oil dual thumb on both. DON'T DRILL ON MY SUGGESTION. I only post so people can correct my thinking while we are waiting for Mo.
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Re: Mo, Question about drill layout for Frenzy and Craze

Post by Mo Pinel »

Wuzlow wrote:You told me to assimilate the Dual Angle method and get back to you. So, I've taken in the reading and I'm ready to give it a shot! I'll try this on myself. Here are my personal specs....

Ball Speed: 17mph (off my hand)
PAP: 5 1/2" by 1/4" up
Axis Tilt: 10 degrees
Axis Rotation: I can vary, but usually 45 to 60 degrees for the norm.
Rev Rate: 360
I'm right handed by the way.

I've got a C-System 3.5 that I'm looking to drill for use at Nationals and for fresh PBA Patterns (the beefier ones).

For the dual angle it says that smaller sums should be used for speed dominant, high axis, long and heavy oil patterns. While the larger sums are used for Rev dominant, low axis, short and lower volume patterns. Since what I'm looking for, and what my specs are, I would assume I need to find common ground between the two categories. So here is my thought on the 3.5.

I'll be bowling on the world championship pattern today in my PBA experience league, and I'm hoping to use this ball for that (since its 41 feet and loaded) and for nationals. Here is my thought on a layout for the 3.5.
Possibly a 40 x 4.5 x 30 with a P3? Am I even close?

Another question I have is I've seen you comment on some other people's posts about general layouts for asymmetrical and symmetrical equipment for the specs they have. Would you have some suggestions for me? Basically I'm looking for general layouts with a +/- degree "buffer" for what will work for me on my specs for both asymmetrical and symmetrical equipment? Do you have a few suggestions for each? Maybe for a THS and Lighter, medium, heavy oil patterns for the PBA Stuff?

I really appreciate your time, and any answers you can give me! Hope I wasn't too far off on my thought of drilling out the 3.5. Thanks you in advance!

Tom
We have to take into account that the 3.5 hooks a lot when surfaced more than box, but rolls fairly smooth.

For you, I like 75 / 3 1/2 / 25 with a P3 hole. Start with fresh 2000 surface.
Your sweet spot is 110* + 20* depending on the oil patterns being bowled on.
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Re: Mo, Question about drill layout for Frenzy and Craze

Post by kellytehuna »

OOOOOOH! I was so close! :) I'm getting there, Mo!
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Re: Mo, Question about drill layout for Frenzy and Craze

Post by cgeorg »

Mo Pinel wrote: We have to take into account that the 3.5 hooks a lot when surfaced more than box, but rolls fairly smooth.

For you, I like 75 / 3 1/2 / 25 with a P3 hole. Start with fresh 2000 surface.
Your sweet spot is 110* + 20* depending on the oil patterns being bowled on.
Wow, 3:1 ratio for 45-60 degree AR. I did not see that one coming. I was with kellytehuna in the 1.5:1 range. I got the angle sum sweet spot right at least.

Trying to get the ball to transition quicker for longer/heavier patterns?
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Re: Mo, Question about drill layout for Frenzy and Craze

Post by MattInTheHat »

I think there are a few reasons Mo went with a 3:1 ratio.

Tom is a bit rev dominant, so a higher angle sum and higher drilling angle will help get his ball down the lane. His axis tilt is medium-low which would raise the ratio some, and averaging out his rotation to 52° would put him in the medium category on rotation which wouldn't really call for a significant raising or lowering the ratio. From another post I have "under 45° rotation use higher ratios, over 75° rotation use lower ratios", so even at 60° his rotation is in the medium-high range but still below the "75° rotation use lower ratios" threshold.

Also since the ball is being used on heavy / long patterns Mo is probably wanting it to transition as quickly as possible, and since he says it has a smoother transition I think he isn't concerned about it becoming snappy.
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Re: Mo, Question about drill layout for Frenzy and Craze

Post by Mo Pinel »

MattInTheHat wrote:I think there are a few reasons Mo went with a 3:1 ratio.

Tom is a bit rev dominant, so a higher angle sum and higher drilling angle will help get his ball down the lane. His axis tilt is medium-low which would raise the ratio some, and averaging out his rotation to 52° would put him in the medium category on rotation which wouldn't really call for a significant raising or lowering the ratio. From another post I have "under 45° rotation use higher ratios, over 75° rotation use lower ratios", so even at 60° his rotation is in the medium-high range but still below the "75° rotation use lower ratios" threshold.

Also since the ball is being used on heavy / long patterns Mo is probably wanting it to transition as quickly as possible, and since he says it has a smoother transition I think he isn't concerned about it becoming snappy.

It's basically the smoother transition of the 3.5 that caused me to increase the ratio of angles.
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Re: Mo, Question about drill layout for Frenzy and Craze

Post by elgavachon »

This drilling is for the 3.5. Is that the recommendation for nationals? What would be his benchmark drilling for the in between balls. Say maybe a frenzy for medium- dry and a craze for medium oil.?
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Re: Mo, Question about drill layout for Frenzy and Craze

Post by Mo Pinel »

elgavachon wrote:This drilling is for the 3.5. Is that the recommendation for nationals? What would be his benchmark drilling for the in between balls. Say maybe a frenzy for medium- dry and a craze for medium oil.?
That should work on the 3.5 for Nationals, probably with more surface, like 1000.

For the FRENZY for med-dry lanes or the Craze for medium oil for him, I would suggest:
70 / 4 / 30 and use the balance hole and the surface to tweak the reaction.
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Re: Mo, Question about drill layout for Frenzy and Craze

Post by Wuzlow »

Wow, I guess I never saw the drill angle with a short pin distance like that coming. I just read the axis rotation influence thread and the dual angle sweet spot article on bowling Wiki. I have some questions about the the layout you chose for the 3.5 for using at nationals and fresh PBA patterns.

The reason I have the questions is because of what I have drilled now. I have a Siege drilled 50/4/50 (OOB) and and Evil Siege drilled 50/4/35 (2000 abralon). I love the reaction I get from both balls, especially the Evil, because it works great for the THS and broken down sport patterns for me. So my thinking I thought that a little smaller drill angle would be great on fresh sport patterns.

Won't the 75 drilling angle make the ball go super long? Also, wont a shorter pin distance make me possibly flare over the P3?

With the Evil and the P3 I put in, I flared over the P3 hole and had to move it slightly closer towards my mid grip (suggested by you Mo, and It worked! Thank you for that).

I'd love to learn more about this, and thought I was getting the hang of it, but I guess I need some more learning! :D

Can you help me understand this, Mo? Thanks!
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