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 Post subject: RH bowler with 8" PAP
 Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:48 am Post Number: #1 Post
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Customer brings in ball with 1:30 pin-- MB is left of thumb. His ball track is slightly right of the ring finger with an 8" PAP and near zero axis tilt. Will a 7:30 pin pull his track into a traditional full roller position?


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 Post subject: Re: RH bowler with 8" PAP
 Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:00 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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If his track is to the right of both the fingers and the thumb holes he's probably am over rolled full roller. Mo has addressed this condition in several earlier threads, do a search to locate them. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: RH bowler with 8" PAP
 Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:55 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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JohnP wrote:
If his track is to the right of both the fingers and the thumb holes he's probably am over rolled full roller. Mo has addressed this condition in several earlier threads, do a search to locate them. -- JohnP


You nailed in JohnP. He has negative tilt.


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 Post subject: Re: RH bowler with 8" PAP
 Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:51 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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We have one of these negative-tilt guys in our league. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw his ball tilted the wrong direction. He's a very high-rev cranker that probably won't have full use of his elbow later in life. He almost looks like he's skipping a stone across a pond in his delivery. He plays way inside and his series usually looks something like 147-213-129. Extreme over-under reaction and designer splits are the norm. I wish someone would stop him before he destroys his arm.


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 Post subject: Re: RH bowler with 8" PAP
 Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:06 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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Got one of these guys too. Any other drilling other than pin 1:30 ( sym or assym ) seems to rumble something. Full roller layouts are worse. This guy is actually pretty smooth and scores well. As long as he stays with stronger stuff and swings it and brings it he is decent. He has tried weaker stuff to play fewer boards and it becomes a nightmare for him.


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 Post subject: Re: RH bowler with 8" PAP
 Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:04 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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alzgarvin wrote:
Got one of these guys too. Any other drilling other than pin 1:30 ( sym or assym ) seems to rumble something. Full roller layouts are worse. This guy is actually pretty smooth and scores well. As long as he stays with stronger stuff and swings it and brings it he is decent. He has tried weaker stuff to play fewer boards and it becomes a nightmare for him.


This one is a hard one. 1:30 is when you drill the ball, NOT how you drill the ball. There might be a thread on "over rolled full rollers" on here. That's what these guys are.


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 Post subject: Re: RH bowler with 8" PAP
 Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:58 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Mo Pinel wrote:
JohnP wrote:
If his track is to the right of both the fingers and the thumb holes he's probably am over rolled full roller. Mo has addressed this condition in several earlier threads, do a search to locate them. -- JohnP


You nailed in JohnP. He has negative tilt.


Negative tilt and an 8 inch horizontal PAP coordinate...this sounds like a potential nightmare for a ball driller!

This scenario sounded interesting, so we tried to duplicate this using Powerhouse Blueprint, only to realize that the current version of the software doesn't allow negative tilts. We'll try to get this fixed in the near future...in the meantime, we've made a few small changes to the development version of the code to allow for this "over-rolled full roller" condition and some pictures are attached.

The left images are for a right-handed bowler with a PAP of 8" right x 0" up with -15 degrees of axis tilt, with a layout that is somewhat similar to what was described in the original post (which ended up being approximately 120 x 6" x 40, based on the description of the pin and mass bias marker).

The second set of images is for a different layout (120 x 8" x 40). Has anyone ever tried something like this (very long pin-to-PAP distances, that is) for an over-rolled full roller?


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 Post subject: Re: RH bowler with 8" PAP
 Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:24 am Post Number: #8 Post
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Blueprint wrote:
Mo Pinel wrote:
JohnP wrote:
If his track is to the right of both the fingers and the thumb holes he's probably am over rolled full roller. Mo has addressed this condition in several earlier threads, do a search to locate them. -- JohnP


You nailed in JohnP. He has negative tilt.


Negative tilt and an 8 inch horizontal PAP coordinate...this sounds like a potential nightmare for a ball driller!

This scenario sounded interesting, so we tried to duplicate this using Powerhouse Blueprint, only to realize that the current version of the software doesn't allow negative tilts. We'll try to get this fixed in the near future...in the meantime, we've made a few small changes to the development version of the code to allow for this "over-rolled full roller" condition and some pictures are attached.

The left images are for a right-handed bowler with a PAP of 8" right x 0" up with -15 degrees of axis tilt, with a layout that is somewhat similar to what was described in the original post (which ended up being approximately 120 x 6" x 40, based on the description of the pin and mass bias marker).

The second set of images is for a different layout (120 x 8" x 40). Has anyone ever tried something like this (very long pin-to-PAP distances, that is) for an over-rolled full roller?


Glad you got involved in this. The axis point is usually about 7 3/4" over and 2" up. Since your on this thread, here's layout to use. Do a "dual angle" layout upside down. Pin down below the midline and PSA up by the fingers. Use a short pin ball so the balance hole is below the midline. Try modeling 60 / 4 1/2 / 40. Ball should flare away from the fingers and under the thumb. Done it many times. I'd really enjoy seeing your model and so would everyone else. Keep balance hole below the midline please. Can't wait!


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 Post subject: Re: RH bowler with 8" PAP
 Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:56 am Post Number: #9 Post
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This type of collaboration isnt really seen in public or on the internet.
This is ground breaking stuff, thank you Blueprint for taking the time to show us everything your product can offer. The best advertisement is results, and I hope some proshop owners that frequent this forum consider your software.

Im glad there are real scenarios out there that your software can be patched to handle.
We're all about progress here, and im really happy everyone can work together to help find a solution.

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 Post subject: Re: RH bowler with 8" PAP
 Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:12 am Post Number: #10 Post
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Mo Pinel wrote:
Blueprint wrote:
Mo Pinel wrote:
JohnP wrote:
If his track is to the right of both the fingers and the thumb holes he's probably am over rolled full roller. Mo has addressed this condition in several earlier threads, do a search to locate them. -- JohnP


You nailed in JohnP. He has negative tilt.


Negative tilt and an 8 inch horizontal PAP coordinate...this sounds like a potential nightmare for a ball driller!

This scenario sounded interesting, so we tried to duplicate this using Powerhouse Blueprint, only to realize that the current version of the software doesn't allow negative tilts. We'll try to get this fixed in the near future...in the meantime, we've made a few small changes to the development version of the code to allow for this "over-rolled full roller" condition and some pictures are attached.

The left images are for a right-handed bowler with a PAP of 8" right x 0" up with -15 degrees of axis tilt, with a layout that is somewhat similar to what was described in the original post (which ended up being approximately 120 x 6" x 40, based on the description of the pin and mass bias marker).

The second set of images is for a different layout (120 x 8" x 40). Has anyone ever tried something like this (very long pin-to-PAP distances, that is) for an over-rolled full roller?


Glad you got involved in this. The axis point is usually about 7 3/4" over and 2" up. Since your on this thread, here's layout to use. Do a "dual angle" layout upside down. Pin down below the midline and PSA up by the fingers. Use a short pin ball so the balance hole is below the midline. Try modeling 60 / 4 1/2 / 40. Ball should flare away from the fingers and under the thumb. Done it many times. I'd really enjoy seeing your model and so would everyone else. Keep balance hole below the midline please. Can't wait!


Do you do a drilling angle with the PSA as the pin and the pin as the PSA with the Val angle to the right of the drill angle? (right hander) or
Is it something else?


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 Post subject: Re: RH bowler with 8" PAP
 Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:53 am Post Number: #11 Post
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The best way I can explain it is to layout the ball as if it were for a left-hander (pin-to PAP and VAL left of pin-to-spin line). Then, turn the ball 180° so that the PSA is up and the pin is down. From the PAP, measure back just as a normal right-handed layout.

The vertical component should move down the VAL towards the pin, and then the horizontal component should go left towards the pin to spin line. Pictures would be great here...


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 Post subject: Re: RH bowler with 8" PAP
 Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:06 am Post Number: #12 Post
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The Kid wrote:
The best way I can explain it is to layout the ball as if it were for a left-hander (pin-to PAP and VAL left of pin-to-spin line). Then, turn the ball 180° so that the PSA is up and the pin is down. From the PAP, measure back just as a normal right-handed layout.

The vertical component should move down the VAL towards the pin, and then the horizontal component should go left towards the pin to spin line. Pictures would be great here...

Is this it?


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 Post subject: Re: RH bowler with 8" PAP
 Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:19 am Post Number: #13 Post
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or this?


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 Post subject: Re: RH bowler with 8" PAP
 Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:02 am Post Number: #14 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
or this?


THAT'S IT!


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 Post subject: Re: RH bowler with 8" PAP
 Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:27 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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Thanks Mo and The kid
We have 2 of these bowlers on a sport league.Brings up a bunch of questions. Probably an all day topic at an IBPSIA class. examples: Is this a one size fits all type layout? Do you ever change the ratios for more length, earlier, etc? or tilts? You stated that you wanted any balance holes below the mid-line, would that balance hole smooth out the reaction? (Looks like a balance hole night-mare to avoid flaring over hole.) Do deeper fingers increase the reaction?
Hope if Blueprint gets this running, he can show some examples of possible balance holes.


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 Post subject: Re: RH bowler with 8" PAP
 Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:07 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
Thanks Mo and The kid
We have 2 of these bowlers on a sport league.Brings up a bunch of questions. Probably an all day topic at an IBPSIA class. examples: Is this a one size fits all type layout? Do you ever change the ratios for more length, earlier, etc? or tilts? You stated that you wanted any balance holes below the mid-line, would that balance hole smooth out the reaction? (Looks like a balance hole night-mare to avoid flaring over hole.) Do deeper fingers increase the reaction?
Hope if Blueprint gets this running, he can show some examples of possible balance holes.


Blueprint PMed me. I sent him the link to this thread. Should have something later today. Same rules apply to layout, but since the balance hole is in a weak position (closer to the pin). It has much less of an effect.


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 Post subject: Re: RH bowler with 8" PAP
 Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:37 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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alzgarvin wrote:
Got one of these guys too. Any other drilling other than pin 1:30 ( sym or assym ) seems to rumble something. Full roller layouts are worse. This guy is actually pretty smooth and scores well. As long as he stays with stronger stuff and swings it and brings it he is decent. He has tried weaker stuff to play fewer boards and it becomes a nightmare for him.

Mo Wrote :
This one is a hard one. 1:30 is when you drill the ball, NOT how you drill the ball. There might be a thread on "over rolled full rollers" on here. That's what these guys are. [/quote]


Sorry about the 1:30 description, this was 6 or 7 years ago we played around with his stuff. Before "proper terminology". I probably drilled his ball at 1:30 am on Jan 30. Seriously though, this makes me want to revisit his case as he is looking to buy a new ball. I will get his track numbers and PAP again and see if we can guinea pig him . It was 7 3/8 over 3/4 up. I do know I tried conventional righty full roller set up and it was worse on the rumble and ball reaction. Also inverted one with pretending pin was MB and MB was pin, an old Ebo Bomb core set up 80/6/45(MB above ring and Pin right of thumb ). This also was a no go. Currently using a Black Widow original set up 72/5/45 weight hole P2.5. Track clips ring at first and then stays right of everything. He has good motion and carry with this piece. Also the old label leverage symetrical layout seems to work for him. ( I almost said 1:30 Pin and CG in palm)

This is good stuff. Hope this bowler info helps.


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 Post subject: Re: RH bowler with 8" PAP
 Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:26 pm Post Number: #18 Post
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Mo Pinel wrote:
Glad you got involved in this. The axis point is usually about 7 3/4" over and 2" up. Since your on this thread, here's layout to use. Do a "dual angle" layout upside down. Pin down below the midline and PSA up by the fingers. Use a short pin ball so the balance hole is below the midline. Try modeling 60 / 4 1/2 / 40. Ball should flare away from the fingers and under the thumb. Done it many times. I'd really enjoy seeing your model and so would everyone else. Keep balance hole below the midline please. Can't wait!


Sorry for the delay in getting this posted...it took a couple of exchanges with Mo to understand the "upside down" layout terminology and translate it into something that can be input into Blueprint. At any rate, attached are the results.

The top left image shows Mo's layout in a ball with a short pin, per his suggestion. This requires a large balance hole below the mid-line and near the pin in order to get the static weights legal. As shown in the bottom left image, it flares as Mo described in his previous post. Also, you can see why you probably wouldn't want to put a weight hole above the mid-line, as the ball would likely roll over it on the backend.

The right set of images is just a random experiment to see what you might try if you didn't have a short pin ball. This example uses a ball with a very long pin-to-CG distance of 6". In this case, you can see that it is possible to achieve somewhat similar results and keep it statically legal with no balance hole by tweaking the layout to something that puts the CG in the vicinity of the grip center.

This post probably barely scratches the surface on this topic, but we hope some of you find this to be useful.


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 Post subject: Re: RH bowler with 8" PAP
 Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:35 am Post Number: #19 Post
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Blueprint wrote:
Mo Pinel wrote:
Glad you got involved in this. The axis point is usually about 7 3/4" over and 2" up. Since your on this thread, here's layout to use. Do a "dual angle" layout upside down. Pin down below the midline and PSA up by the fingers. Use a short pin ball so the balance hole is below the midline. Try modeling 60 / 4 1/2 / 40. Ball should flare away from the fingers and under the thumb. Done it many times. I'd really enjoy seeing your model and so would everyone else. Keep balance hole below the midline please. Can't wait!


Sorry for the delay in getting this posted...it took a couple of exchanges with Mo to understand the "upside down" layout terminology and translate it into something that can be input into Blueprint. At any rate, attached are the results.

The top left image shows Mo's layout in a ball with a short pin, per his suggestion. This requires a large balance hole below the mid-line and near the pin in order to get the static weights legal. As shown in the bottom left image, it flares as Mo described in his previous post. Also, you can see why you probably wouldn't want to put a weight hole above the mid-line, as the ball would likely roll over it on the backend.

The right set of images is just a random experiment to see what you might try if you didn't have a short pin ball. This example uses a ball with a very long pin-to-CG distance of 6". In this case, you can see that it is possible to achieve somewhat similar results and keep it statically legal with no balance hole by tweaking the layout to something that puts the CG in the vicinity of the grip center.

This post probably barely scratches the surface on this topic, but we hope some of you find this to be useful.


That's great stuff. It gives the ball drillers two different choices. That should be enough to handle the small group of bowler's with this roll. Look forward to doing more things together to benefit the industry without comprising our other contractual obligations.


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