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 Post subject: light handed bowler
 Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:49 am Post Number: #1 Post
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looking for some wisdom. i drilled the mania double thumb and the only way i can get it to turn the corner i have to put more angle of rotation then i am comfortable with. if i was to decrease the drill angle and the val would i not get the ball into the hook phase sooner and still get the same back end


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 Post subject: Re: light handed bowler
 Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:21 am Post Number: #2 Post
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Are you sure you drilled it up correctly? Could you tell us your PAP, the drilling angle? Actually, if you could post a pic of the drilled ball with your PAP, VAL angle, Pin-PAP line and drilling angle marked, that would be really handy. Something tells me you didn't get the drilling angle right.

If you did get the drilling angle right, I find it hard to believe you can't get this ball to turn the corner. The 30° VAL angle gives you fairly fast second transition, which means it should respond well to friction and the placement of the weight hole should place the PSA in close proximity to both the weight hole AND the thumb hole which is what maximizes the diffs (total and intermediate) which raises the flare potential (total diff) AND the strength of the back end reaction (intermediate diff).

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 Post subject: Re: light handed bowler
 Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:59 am Post Number: #3 Post
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it is probably hooking and the arrows and then going straight


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 Post subject: Re: light handed bowler
 Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:08 am Post Number: #4 Post
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Mo gave some advice to Adrenaline who has similar specs to yours, and told him to drill his mania 40 3 1/4 20 if I remember right with a p4 wt hole and sanded to 360 A, but I think that would make it even hook sooner if it is hooking too soon now ,I don't think that would help
This probably falls under what Mo was saying about Strong looking weak on dry.


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 Post subject: Re: light handed bowler
 Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:31 am Post Number: #5 Post
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kellytehuna wrote:
Are you sure you drilled it up correctly? Could you tell us your PAP, the drilling angle? Actually, if you could post a pic of the drilled ball with your PAP, VAL angle, Pin-PAP line and drilling angle marked, that would be really handy. Something tells me you didn't get the drilling angle right.

If you did get the drilling angle right, I find it hard to believe you can't get this ball to turn the corner. The 30° VAL angle gives you fairly fast second transition, which means it should respond well to friction and the placement of the weight hole should place the PSA in close proximity to both the weight hole AND the thumb hole which is what maximizes the diffs (total and intermediate) which raises the flare potential (total diff) AND the strength of the back end reaction (intermediate diff).


I agree with Kelly's thoughts, but I want to be thorough. What are your personal specs. (ball speed, rev rate, axis rotation and axis tilt)? What hand do you throw it with? What is your PAP? What are the angles exactly? Can you post a picture? I want to investigate this.


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 Post subject: Re: light handed bowler
 Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:58 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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my pap is over5 up.5 i layed it out 58 x4 x 30 with 31/32 hole 1.5 in right of thumb. the cg of this ball was kicked to the left some i didn't measure it but it was a fair amount. when i drilled it i had to drill the fingers as deep as i could to stay under 1 oz finger wt. the bal hole is only 2 in deep. when i weighed it after drilling it, it had neg side wgt and 1.2oz of finger so i put some ball plug in bal hole. i didn't weigh after i did that but my guess is it is close to egual side and .75 finger. it might take a couple day to get a picture of it on line. the cg is very close to my grip center like 1/4 right and up. thank for your help. like i said when my friend threw it it rolled very nice.we both have a 3.5 and i need to play more up the lane around 8 or 9 he plays around 12 or 13 with plenty of back end. our house shot has heavy oil from 10 to 10 with38ft and tapered to the side and back.


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 Post subject: Re: light handed bowler
 Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:38 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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How does your friend throw the ball, that it rolled up nicer for him?
I assume based on the fact he's 5 boards left of you, that he either has more hand, less speed, more axis rotation, or less axis tilt?

What are your numbers for speed/axis rotation/tilt/rpm? Even a good estimate is more helpful than nothing

Either way, if it rolls well when it stays in the oil longer then it may be that you're getting into the dry too early.

Strong cover, strong drill, will require a good amount of head oil. Have you attempted to change the surface at all? 4000 or a light polish would probably help conserve energy, if this is the situation

What else have you succeeded with on this condition? What surface, drill, and what area of the lane did you play.


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 Post subject: Re: light handed bowler
 Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:23 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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dlj2214 wrote:
my pap is over5 up.5 i layed it out 58 x4 x 30 with 31/32 hole 1.5 in right of thumb. the cg of this ball was kicked to the left some i didn't measure it but it was a fair amount. when i drilled it i had to drill the fingers as deep as i could to stay under 1 oz finger wt. the bal hole is only 2 in deep. when i weighed it after drilling it, it had neg side wgt and 1.2oz of finger so i put some ball plug in bal hole. i didn't weigh after i did that but my guess is it is close to egual side and .75 finger. it might take a couple day to get a picture of it on line. the cg is very close to my grip center like 1/4 right and up. thank for your help. like i said when my friend threw it it rolled very nice.we both have a 3.5 and i need to play more up the lane around 8 or 9 he plays around 12 or 13 with plenty of back end. our house shot has heavy oil from 10 to 10 with38ft and tapered to the side and back.


Let's help you out with this. It sounds like you did everything right. Let's pursue this further. How deep are the fingers? How far was the cg left of the pin to spin line? What is your axis rotation? What is your axis tilt? Get me that info and we can work from here. Sounds like a picture is not necessary.


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 Post subject: Re: light handed bowler
 Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:46 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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the fingers are 3 in deep my fingers are 29 and 13 so middle finger is drilled 1 1/32 they meet at the bottem of hole cg is 1 1/2 in left of line from pin to psa puts it near center of grip , bal hole is1 1/4 deep 31/32,i have 1/2 oz finger and 1/2 oz neg .when i measure between oil rings i have about 11 1/2 in between. the other measurment i don't know i stay behind the ball i tried it today at 4000 and when i came through it, it worked fine it is touchy i need to work on my release . i would still like any thoughts thanks for your time


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 Post subject: Re: light handed bowler
 Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:24 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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dlj2214 wrote:
the fingers are 3 in deep my fingers are 29 and 13 so middle finger is drilled 1 1/32 they meet at the bottem of hole cg is 1 1/2 in left of line from pin to psa puts it near center of grip , bal hole is1 1/4 deep 31/32,i have 1/2 oz finger and 1/2 oz neg .when i measure between oil rings i have about 11 1/2 in between. the other measurment i don't know i stay behind the ball


Good research! The cg being 1 1/2" away from the pin to spin line, puts it within the 1 5/8" tolerance, so it's a first. Here is where we go with this. Drill the middle finger 4" deep. That will reduce finger weight and add side weight. Drill the balance hole deeper, a little at a time, 'til you have 3/4oz+ of finger weight. That will get you the best reaction!

Now for the more difficult part. You need to learn how to get around the ball. If you stay behind the ball long enough, the ball will NOT hook! Axis rotation is necessary for the ball to hook and have a decent entry angle. Sounds like the difference between you and your buddy is his amount of axis rotation.


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 Post subject: Re: light handed bowler
 Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:42 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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dlj2214 wrote:
.when i measure between oil rings i have about 11 1/2 in between. the other measurment i don't know i stay behind the ball i tried it today at 4000 and when i came through it, it worked fine it is touchy i need to work on my release . i would still like any thoughts thanks for your time


If you don't have exact measurements it's not the worst

Compared to other bowlers you see, does the ball roll very quickly, or slower?

Compared to other bowlers you see do you throw faster or slower?

These aren't hard to measure if you have a video camera. If not, a stopwatch and a friend can get speed very easily. Time the ball from release to contact with the headpin. 60feet / x seconds. Pretty easy to convert to miles per hour from there.

These will get a much better idea of what you're doing, and what the ball is doing.

If it's starting to work better at the 4000grit surface, then it looks to be the case that the surface was too strong for the condition.

What do you mean by when you came through it, it rolled fine? Are you trying to say that if you had a good release, it rolled well, but when you released it bad, it rolled poorly? What happened if it hit the dry too early?
What happened if it stayed in the oil?

Please, if possible, take a decent quality video, and post that here. Put Tape from your positive axis point to the top of the fingers. This will assist in the visualization of your axis rotation, tilt, and rpm.


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