Help from Mo on a new Ball

Which layout is right for me?

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chucks0
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Positive Axis Point: 4 1/4 Over - 1/8 down
Speed: 17-18 at Release
Rev Rate: 425
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 65
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Help from Mo on a new Ball

Post by chucks0 »

I have been trying to find a suitable replacement for one of my favorite league balls since it is pretty beat up at this point. I was hoping that Mo could suggest a MoRich ball (or any other that would fit the bill) and a layout that would give me a similar reaction.

Current Ball - Ebonite Smash Time Pearl
RG: 2.44, Diff: .054
Layout: 45 X 5.75 X 35 (As measure before drilling)

My Specs
Speed: 17-18
Rev Rate: ~350 (Don't have access to high speed camera to get an accurate measurement)
Axis Tilt: ~15 degrees
Axis Rotation: Appears to be around 50-70

Thanks
My Specs:
Ball Speed: ~18 at Release
Rev Rate: ~400
Tilt: ~15 Degrees
Rotation: ~65 Degrees
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Re: Help from Mo on a new Ball

Post by Mo Pinel »

chucks0 wrote:I have been trying to find a suitable replacement for one of my favorite league balls since it is pretty beat up at this point. I was hoping that Mo could suggest a MoRich ball (or any other that would fit the bill) and a layout that would give me a similar reaction.

Current Ball - Ebonite Smash Time Pearl
RG: 2.44, Diff: .054
Layout: 45 X 5.75 X 35 (As measure before drilling)

My Specs
Speed: 17-18
Rev Rate: ~350 (Don't have access to high speed camera to get an accurate measurement)
Axis Tilt: ~15 degrees
Axis Rotation: Appears to be around 50-70

Thanks

I suggest a Craze for you drilled: 60 / 4 / 40 with a P3 hole. Adjust the surface as necessary. Let me know how you do.
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chucks0
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Positive Axis Point: 4 1/4 Over - 1/8 down
Speed: 17-18 at Release
Rev Rate: 425
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 65
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Yeti Untamed or Rotogrip Disturbed
Medium Oil Ball: Radical Yeti
Light Oil Ball: Brunswick Avalanche Solid
Preferred Company: Radical

Re: Help from Mo on a new Ball

Post by chucks0 »

If my axis rotation were to increase to 75 degrees (which seems to happen when I move deeper on the lane), how would that affect the layout choice?
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Re: Help from Mo on a new Ball

Post by Adrenaline »

chucks0 wrote:If my axis rotation were to increase to 75 degrees (which seems to happen when I move deeper on the lane), how would that affect the layout choice?
I don't fully comprehend the "why" yet as it hasn't sunk it, but here's the short answers as compiled by cgeorg.
cgeorg wrote:Coming up with the "sweet range" of dual angle specs, given a particular bowler's style.

Bowler specs affecting ball layout:
Ball speed
Rev rate
Axis tilt
Axis rotation

Dual Angle ranges:
Angle sum:

Angle sum is the sum of the drilling and VAL angles. The main components that will affect this are ball speed and rev rate. An example of a well matched bowler would be 18mph speed and 300rpm (off the hand). For each 1mph increase or decrease in speed, a corresponding increase or decrease of about 50rpm would stay matched. Bowlers whose ball speed and rev rate are well matched will match up best with angle sums of 100° ± 30°. In general, the ± 30° will stay the same, and the 100° will shift. For bowlers that are speed dominant, you would want to lower the center of the range, to a minimum of 60° ± 30°. For bowlers who are rev dominant, you would want to raise the center of the range, up to a maximum of 130° ± 30°. High axis tilt would lower the center of the range, while high axis rotation would raise the center of the range.

Pin-PAP distance

Note that the following ranges refer to asymmetrical cores, which have different properties at longer pin-PAP distances than do symmetrical cores. Bowlers with medium tilt will match up best with pin-PAP distances in the 4-5" range. Bowlers with higher tilt would want to use slightly longer distances, while bowlers with lower tilt would want to use shorter pin-PAP distances.

Angle ratio

Angle ratio is the ratio of drilling angle to VAL angle. Acceptable ratios range from 1:3 to 3:1. The range used by a bowler is dependent on axis tilt and axis rotation. The more axis tilt and/or axis rotation a bowler has, the lower the angle ratios the bowler should use. A bowler with 30° degrees of axis rotation and 15° of axis tilt would do best between 1:1 and 2:1. A bowler with higher axis rotation and lower tilt, such as Pete Weber (generally around 60-75° axis rotation, and < 10° axis tilt), would do best between 1:3 and 1:1.

Of course, the range of Dual Angle specs that match for a bowler is only a guide. You must still determine what sort of reaction the bowler is looking to get out of the ball, and the condition that the bowler will be bowling on, in order to determine the ball and specific layout that will provide the best result. In order to determine where in the sweet range a layout should fit, please refer to the Dual Angle layout guide.
*Red applies to you.

So, in short... as I understand so far anyways...
As you increase your Axis Rotation, you'll want to:
1: Increase Angle Sum
2: Decrease Angle Ratio (3:1 is high, 1:3 is low)

Mo had you at: 60 / 4 / 40 (Which I thought was a tiny bit high since I personally felt you had a touch more speed than you did revs, but Mo used a P3 hole, which increase the reaction, which works with the higher angle sum)
Which is a Sum of 100, and Ratio of 1.5:1
To both, increase sum, and lower rotation, you'd increase the Val Angle. Which will smooth out back end reaction, while keeping the first transition in the same place. This is because a higher Axis Rotation from the bowler, promotes more angle on the back end, due to side roll put on the ball.
Going to a 60 / 4 / 60 puts you at a Sum of 120 and ratio of 1:1 and would be close to what I expect the answer to be for you. And this is probably still going to need a P3 hole to remain consistent with Mo's recommendation, but you can always throw it first, and put the hole in after if needed.

*Please note*
I am not a ball driller, nor do I have anywhere near the amount of knowledge that people like Mo, Paul etc have. I have zero, 0, experience with ball mechanics or drilling layouts. The above is purely based on what I have read, and personally tried to understand, meaning I could be incredibly wrong in more ways that I can count. My recommendations, are simply testing my understanding of the knowledge Mo has given us on this site, to see if I'm actually learning how to apply what I'm learning. Just FYI :?
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Re: Help from Mo on a new Ball

Post by Mo Pinel »

Adrenaline wrote: I don't fully comprehend the "why" yet as it hasn't sunk it, but here's the short answers as compiled by cgeorg.
*Red applies to you.

So, in short... as I understand so far anyways...
As you increase your Axis Rotation, you'll want to:
1: Increase Angle Sum
2: Decrease Angle Ratio (3:1 is high, 1:3 is low)

Mo had you at: 60 / 4 / 40 (Which I thought was a tiny bit high since I personally felt you had a touch more speed than you did revs, but Mo used a P3 hole, which increase the reaction, which works with the higher angle sum)
Which is a Sum of 100, and Ratio of 1.5:1
To both, increase sum, and lower rotation, you'd increase the Val Angle. Which will smooth out back end reaction, while keeping the first transition in the same place. This is because a higher Axis Rotation from the bowler, promotes more angle on the back end, due to side roll put on the ball.
Going to a 60 / 4 / 60 puts you at a Sum of 120 and ratio of 1:1 and would be close to what I expect the answer to be for you. And this is probably still going to need a P3 hole to remain consistent with Mo's recommendation, but you can always throw it first, and put the hole in after if needed.

*Please note*
I am not a ball driller, nor do I have anywhere near the amount of knowledge that people like Mo, Paul etc have. I have zero, 0, experience with ball mechanics or drilling layouts. The above is purely based on what I have read, and personally tried to understand, meaning I could be incredibly wrong in more ways that I can count. My recommendations, are simply testing my understanding of the knowledge Mo has given us on this site, to see if I'm actually learning how to apply what I'm learning. Just FYI :?
My God, that's a lot of prose, but increasing axis rotation ONLY will require reducing the drilling angle only!
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Re: Help from Mo on a new Ball

Post by cgeorg »

Mo Pinel wrote:My God, that's a lot of prose, but increasing axis rotation ONLY will require reducing the drilling angle only!
Mo,

Are you saying that you reduce the angle sum range for higher axis rotation bowlers?
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Re: Help from Mo on a new Ball

Post by Mo Pinel »

cgeorg wrote: Mo,

Are you saying that you reduce the angle sum range for higher axis rotation bowlers?
Reduce the drilling angle only, which reduces the sum of the angles and the angle ratio. More axis rotation delays the transitions and makes the break point more angular.
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Adrenaline
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Re: Help from Mo on a new Ball

Post by Adrenaline »

Mo Pinel wrote: Reduce the drilling angle only, which reduces the sum of the angles and the angle ratio. More axis rotation delays the transitions and makes the break point more angular.
Hmmmm, this contradicts the guidelines cgeorg layed out...
Looks like you've got some editing to do cgeorg :p
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Re: Help from Mo on a new Ball

Post by cgeorg »

Adrenaline wrote:Hmmmm, this contradicts the guidelines cgeorg layed out...
Looks like you've got some editing to do cgeorg :p
Hey, that's the beauty of WIKIs... Anyone can fix it!
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chucks0
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Positive Axis Point: 4 1/4 Over - 1/8 down
Speed: 17-18 at Release
Rev Rate: 425
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 65
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Yeti Untamed or Rotogrip Disturbed
Medium Oil Ball: Radical Yeti
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Re: Help from Mo on a new Ball

Post by chucks0 »

Based on your recommendation, I assume my sweet spot would be 100 degree sum of angles. Could you also recommend alternate drillings such as "long and strong", "control", and "strong midlane". I was also thinking of picking up a mania for nationals. What sort of layout would you recommend for that as well? I think I am getting closer to understanding all of this dual angle stuff.
Mo Pinel wrote:
I suggest a Craze for you drilled: 60 / 4 / 40 with a P3 hole. Adjust the surface as necessary. Let me know how you do.
My Specs:
Ball Speed: ~18 at Release
Rev Rate: ~400
Tilt: ~15 Degrees
Rotation: ~65 Degrees
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Re: Help from Mo on a new Ball

Post by Mo Pinel »

chucks0 wrote:Based on your recommendation, I assume my sweet spot would be 100 degree sum of angles. Could you also recommend alternate drillings such as "long and strong", "control", and "strong midlane". I was also thinking of picking up a mania for nationals. What sort of layout would you recommend for that as well? I think I am getting closer to understanding all of this dual angle stuff.
My estimate of your sweet spot at 100*. Your range for the sum of your angles is from 80* to 120*.

Long and strong: 90 / 3 / 30 with a P3 hole
Completely strong: "Double Thumb"
Strong midlane: 45 / 4 / 25 with a P4 hole
Control: 70 / 4 1/2 / 50 with a P1 or P2 hole, if necessary.

mania for Nationals: 55 / 3 1/4 / 35 with a P3 hole
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chucks0
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Posts: 143
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Positive Axis Point: 4 1/4 Over - 1/8 down
Speed: 17-18 at Release
Rev Rate: 425
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 65
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Yeti Untamed or Rotogrip Disturbed
Medium Oil Ball: Radical Yeti
Light Oil Ball: Brunswick Avalanche Solid
Preferred Company: Radical

Re: Help from Mo on a new Ball

Post by chucks0 »

What type of reaction would I expect from the 60 / 4 / 40 with a P3 hole on the Craze since it doesn't exactly fit on the listed drillings?

Also, do you recommend using the same layout on different bowling balls to get a different reaction, or purchasing the same ball and using different layouts?

Thanks again for all of your help. I have always struggled with getting the expected reaction I was looking for when drilling equipment and I figure the more I understand, the better I'll be.
Mo Pinel wrote: My estimate of your sweet spot at 100*. Your range for the sum of your angles is from 80* to 120*.

Long and strong: 90 / 3 / 30 with a P3 hole
Completely strong: "Double Thumb"
Strong midlane: 45 / 4 / 25 with a P4 hole
Control: 70 / 4 1/2 / 50 with a P1 or P2 hole, if necessary.

mania for Nationals: 55 / 3 1/4 / 35 with a P3 hole
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Re: Help from Mo on a new Ball

Post by Mo Pinel »

chucks0 wrote:What type of reaction would I expect from the 60 / 4 / 40 with a P3 hole on the Craze since it doesn't exactly fit on the listed drillings?

Also, do you recommend using the same layout on different bowling balls to get a different reaction, or purchasing the same ball and using different layouts?

Thanks again for all of your help. I have always struggled with getting the expected reaction I was looking for when drilling equipment and I figure the more I understand, the better I'll be.

My suggested Craze layout will give you a "benchmark" ball. MOR!

You can use your "benchmark" layout in different balls, or you can do the multiple layouts I suggested when you find a ball that matches up for you well.

My personal preference for you is to do multiple layouts in MoRich balls. I wonder why?
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chucks0
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Positive Axis Point: 4 1/4 Over - 1/8 down
Speed: 17-18 at Release
Rev Rate: 425
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 65
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Yeti Untamed or Rotogrip Disturbed
Medium Oil Ball: Radical Yeti
Light Oil Ball: Brunswick Avalanche Solid
Preferred Company: Radical

Re: Help from Mo on a new Ball

Post by chucks0 »

Based on the great advice I've been able to get here, I've decided that my next 2 balls will definitely be MoRich balls. I've got bags full of Ebonite equipment right now and I've really been disappointed with the last few I've drilled with the only exceptions being the GameBreaker and PinSlasher.

Thanks Mo for all your help. I'm looking forward to drilling up some MoRich equipment. Where does the Frenzy fit in with the Craze and Mania?
Mo Pinel wrote:
My suggested Craze layout will give you a "benchmark" ball. MOR!

You can use your "benchmark" layout in different balls, or you can do the multiple layouts I suggested when you find a ball that matches up for you well.

My personal preference for you is to do multiple layouts in MoRich balls. I wonder why?
chucks0
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Positive Axis Point: 4 1/4 Over - 1/8 down
Speed: 17-18 at Release
Rev Rate: 425
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 65
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Yeti Untamed or Rotogrip Disturbed
Medium Oil Ball: Radical Yeti
Light Oil Ball: Brunswick Avalanche Solid
Preferred Company: Radical

Re: Help from Mo on a new Ball

Post by chucks0 »

Now that I've gotten access to a better camera, it appears that my rev rate is closer to 400 than 350. How does this affect the suggested layouts?
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Re: Help from Mo on a new Ball

Post by Mo Pinel »

chucks0 wrote:Now that I've gotten access to a better camera, it appears that my rev rate is closer to 400 than 350. How does this affect the suggested layouts?

Good work. Thanks for your passion! That being the case with the axis rotation and tilt being the same, just increase each of the angles 5* to compensate for the increased rev rate.
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chucks0
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Positive Axis Point: 4 1/4 Over - 1/8 down
Speed: 17-18 at Release
Rev Rate: 425
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Axis Rotation: 65
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Yeti Untamed or Rotogrip Disturbed
Medium Oil Ball: Radical Yeti
Light Oil Ball: Brunswick Avalanche Solid
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Re: Help from Mo on a new Ball

Post by chucks0 »

Mo, it is amazing how good your recommendations are. I just took all of my bowling balls in and found out their current dual angle layouts. My Smash Time Pearl has always been my most consistent reacting ball regardless of lane conditions. The layout: 60 X 5 7/8 X 40. Aside from the longer pin to pap, this is exactly what you recommended. I imagine the longer pin to pap works because the ball has such a low RG (2.44).

Thanks again for all of your help and I can't wait to see how a ball with a proper layout works for me.
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Re: Help from Mo on a new Ball

Post by Mo Pinel »

chucks0 wrote:Mo, it is amazing how good your recommendations are. I just took all of my bowling balls in and found out their current dual angle layouts. My Smash Time Pearl has always been my most consistent reacting ball regardless of lane conditions. The layout: 60 X 5 7/8 X 40. Aside from the longer pin to pap, this is exactly what you recommended. I imagine the longer pin to pap works because the ball has such a low RG (2.44).

Thanks again for all of your help and I can't wait to see how a ball with a proper layout works for me.

The longer pin to PAP distance works because you bowl on THS conditions. It has nothing to do with the RG.

You're welcome!
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chucks0
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Posts: 143
Joined: March 8th, 2010, 3:33 pm
THS Average: 220
Positive Axis Point: 4 1/4 Over - 1/8 down
Speed: 17-18 at Release
Rev Rate: 425
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 65
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Yeti Untamed or Rotogrip Disturbed
Medium Oil Ball: Radical Yeti
Light Oil Ball: Brunswick Avalanche Solid
Preferred Company: Radical

Re: Help from Mo on a new Ball

Post by chucks0 »

One last question on layouts before I start revamping my arsenal. After recording my release and ball roll on several different days with a good camera, my best estimate of my specs is as follows:

Speed: 17-18 (Based on time from release to contact with head pin - 2.35 Seconds)
Rev Rate: ~400 (Based on 2.25 revolutions in 10 frames @ 30 fps)
Axis Tilt: ~15 degrees (11 - 11.5 inches across initial track)
Axis Rotation: Appears to be around 65-70 (using overlay image)

My previous recommendations were as follows:

Sweet Spot is 100*
Range for the sum of angles is from 80* to 120*
Benchmark Layout: 60 / 4 / 40 with a P3 hole
Long and strong: 90 / 3 / 30 with a P3 hole
Completely strong: "Double Thumb"
Strong midlane: 45 / 4 / 25 with a P4 hole
Control: 70 / 4 1/2 / 50 with a P1 or P2 hole, if necessary.
Mania for Nationals: 55 / 3 1/4 / 35 with a P3 hole

Do these layouts still seem correct, or do I need to adjust them somewhat. Based on what I have read, the increase in Axis Rotation may require reducing the drill angle by 5* although the increased rev rate would indicate an increase of 5* of both drill and val angles. If I'm correct (which I'm probably not), the net result would be to increase the val angle only by 5* on all the recommended layouts.

Okay Mo, tell me I'm wrong and correct me. :)
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Re: Help from Mo on a new Ball

Post by headwest »

Was this a mistake??


My estimate of your sweet spot at 100*. Your range for the sum of your angles is from 80* to 120*.



Strong midlane: 45 / 4 / 25 with a P4 hole =70*
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