Looking for recommendations

Which layout is right for me?

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chucks0
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Positive Axis Point: 4 1/4 Over - 1/8 down
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Looking for recommendations

Post by chucks0 »

I wanted to get other people's opinion about the sweet spot for me with the dual angle layout.

Pap: 4" over 1/2" down
Axis Tilt: 15 (I thought this would be higher given my pap but initial track is around 11.25)
Axis Rotation: 45-60
Rev Rate: 325-350
Ball Speed: 17-18

Thanks
elgavachon
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Re: Looking for recommendations

Post by elgavachon »

your specs are very similar to Cgeorg.
Post subject: Re: Matching Dual Angle ranges to bowler specs
Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:37 pm Post Number: #13 Post
Paul commented to Cgeorg
Your pin to PAP distances are 4" to 5" and based on your 15* of axis tilt.
Your angle ratio is between 1:1 and 2:1, also, based on your tilt.

Cgeorg post #20 says:
An example of a well matched bowler would be 18mph speed and 300rpm (off the hand). For each 1mph increase or decrease in speed, a corresponding increase or decrease of about 50rpm would stay matched. Bowlers whose ball speed and rev rate are well matched will match up best with angle sums of 100° ± 30°. In general, the ± 30° will stay the same, and the 100° will shift.

If we used the data above I would say your sweet sums=100 degrees with a 4-5 inch pin and a 1:1 to 2:1 ratio.

Please note: If Cgeorg is like me he might post an idea just so people can correct his thinking. I am assuming that his speed and rev rate
matching calculation is o.k. since no one challenged it.
chucks0
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Positive Axis Point: 4 1/4 Over - 1/8 down
Speed: 17-18 at Release
Rev Rate: 425
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 65
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Yeti Untamed or Rotogrip Disturbed
Medium Oil Ball: Radical Yeti
Light Oil Ball: Brunswick Avalanche Solid
Preferred Company: Radical

Re: Looking for recommendations

Post by chucks0 »

Is this recommendation for symmetric or asymmetric equipment or both? I always get confused on this part of the dual angle system.
elgavachon wrote: Your pin to PAP distances are 4" to 5" and based on your 15* of axis tilt.
chucks0
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Joined: March 8th, 2010, 3:33 pm
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Positive Axis Point: 4 1/4 Over - 1/8 down
Speed: 17-18 at Release
Rev Rate: 425
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 65
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Yeti Untamed or Rotogrip Disturbed
Medium Oil Ball: Radical Yeti
Light Oil Ball: Brunswick Avalanche Solid
Preferred Company: Radical

Re: Looking for recommendations

Post by chucks0 »

Hopefully someone can explain why some of my favorite equipment (Ebonite Gamebreaker and Ebonite Pinslasher) have Dual Angle Sums of 65 which is much lower than my "sweet spot" according to the recommendations I have received. Is it because the balls are very archy in nature and decreasing the val angle gives them a somewhat more angular motion or is it because my sweet spot may actually be lower than the 100 that my specs would indicate?
elgavachon wrote:your specs are very similar to Cgeorg.
Post subject: Re: Matching Dual Angle ranges to bowler specs
Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:37 pm Post Number: #13 Post
Paul commented to Cgeorg
Your pin to PAP distances are 4" to 5" and based on your 15* of axis tilt.
Your angle ratio is between 1:1 and 2:1, also, based on your tilt.

Cgeorg post #20 says:
An example of a well matched bowler would be 18mph speed and 300rpm (off the hand). For each 1mph increase or decrease in speed, a corresponding increase or decrease of about 50rpm would stay matched. Bowlers whose ball speed and rev rate are well matched will match up best with angle sums of 100° ± 30°. In general, the ± 30° will stay the same, and the 100° will shift.

If we used the data above I would say your sweet sums=100 degrees with a 4-5 inch pin and a 1:1 to 2:1 ratio.

Please note: If Cgeorg is like me he might post an idea just so people can correct his thinking. I am assuming that his speed and rev rate
matching calculation is o.k. since no one challenged it.
My Specs:
Ball Speed: ~18 at Release
Rev Rate: ~400
Tilt: ~15 Degrees
Rotation: ~65 Degrees
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kellytehuna
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Re: Looking for recommendations

Post by kellytehuna »

I suspect its more likely to be a conditions thing, more than anything else. THE largest contributing factor to ball reaction is the conditions we bowl. I suspect the conditions you bowl on demand more midlane and less backend than you would get should you use your "optimum" angle sum.
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Re: Looking for recommendations

Post by MegaMav »

chucks0 wrote:Hopefully someone can explain why some of my favorite equipment (Ebonite Gamebreaker and Ebonite Pinslasher) have Dual Angle Sums of 65 which is much lower than my "sweet spot" according to the recommendations I have received.
I felt the same way you did, I had a reaction I thoght was optimal until I started working with Paul.

Since his layout recommendations, which came with many quaestions from me, ive been really killing it with layouts versatile enough to match up perfectly to my different releases.

Everything came together for me working with Paul.

I didnt think anyone knew how get the most out of my game that I, but I was wrong.

Put trust in these guys and commit to what they're telling you.
They're professionals, you wont be dissapointed.
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purduepaul
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Re: Looking for recommendations

Post by purduepaul »

chucks0 wrote:Hopefully someone can explain why some of my favorite equipment (Ebonite Gamebreaker and Ebonite Pinslasher) have Dual Angle Sums of 65 which is much lower than my "sweet spot" according to the recommendations I have received. Is it because the balls are very archy in nature and decreasing the val angle gives them a somewhat more angular motion or is it because my sweet spot may actually be lower than the 100 that my specs would indicate?
What are you designating as your drilling angles? your drilling angle can be approximated on any drilled symmetrical ball byt the drilling angle from the pin through the center of the thumb hole. Wihtout a weight hole in the ball the driling angle will be very close...what are those two balls' proper dual angles?

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chucks0
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Positive Axis Point: 4 1/4 Over - 1/8 down
Speed: 17-18 at Release
Rev Rate: 425
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 65
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Yeti Untamed or Rotogrip Disturbed
Medium Oil Ball: Radical Yeti
Light Oil Ball: Brunswick Avalanche Solid
Preferred Company: Radical

Re: Looking for recommendations

Post by chucks0 »

Ok you lost me a bit. Are you saying that the true dual angle drilling on a symmetrical ball changes after drilling. Obviously before drilling it was laid out by using a line from the pin through the cg. Are you saying after drilling, I should draw a line from the pin through the center of the thumb and check the angles again? If this is the case, I would imagine that the first angle increase by 10 degrees or so since the cg is kicked out to the right about 3/4 of an inch or so. I will have to wait until I get home to check for sure.
purduepaul wrote:What are you designating as your drilling angles? your drilling angle can be approximated on any drilled symmetrical ball byt the drilling angle from the pin through the center of the thumb hole. Wihtout a weight hole in the ball the driling angle will be very close...what are those two balls' proper dual angles?

Paul
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Re: Looking for recommendations

Post by Mo Pinel »

chucks0 wrote:Ok you lost me a bit. Are you saying that the true dual angle drilling on a symmetrical ball changes after drilling. Obviously before drilling it was laid out by using a line from the pin through the cg. Are you saying after drilling, I should draw a line from the pin through the center of the thumb and check the angles again? If this is the case, I would imagine that the first angle increase by 10 degrees or so since the cg is kicked out to the right about 3/4 of an inch or so. I will have to wait until I get home to check for sure.
Controlling the PSA on a symmetrical ball after it's drilled is not exact. Using the thumb hole as the PSA is a good approximation of the drilling angle of the drilled ball before putting a balance hole in it. Once a balance hole is drilled, the PSA will move toward the balance hole. As the balance hole gets bigger, the PSA moves closer to the balance hole. The only way to accurately locate the PSA on a drilled symmetrical ball is by using a DeTerminator.
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Re: Looking for recommendations

Post by Adrenaline »

Mo Pinel wrote: Controlling the PSA on a symmetrical ball after it's drilled is not exact. Using the thumb hole as the PSA is a good approximation of the drilling angle of the drilled ball before putting a balance hole in it. Once a balance hole is drilled, the PSA will move toward the balance hole. As the balance hole gets bigger, the PSA moves closer to the balance hole. The only way to accurately locate the PSA on a drilled symmetrical ball is by using a DeTerminator.
Question... Let's say I have a Symmetrical ball drilled up. And I want to fine tune the reaction now, with a Gradient Line hole. Initially I would have marked a line from my PAP to a mark I created 6 3/4 away from the Pin through the CG. Then created 4 Equa-distant points using the Pap as P1, and 'marked' MB as P4. Are you saying this is the incorrect way to mark out the Gradient Line? That I should start using the Thumb Hole as the P4? In which case it becomes impossible to actually add a P4 weight hole, limiting you to P3 for a stronger reaction?
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kellytehuna
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Re: Looking for recommendations

Post by kellytehuna »

Basically; Yes.

When you drill a bal,l the thumb will be THE BIGGEST hole in the ball and therefore have the largest amount of mass removed, which in turn greatly increases the RG at that location. From all the pictures I've seen of Symmetrical balls being spun on a determinator post-drilling, the PSA is ALWAYS in the general vicinity of the thumb. That being the case, you effectively have a P4 hole BEFORE you even think about a weight hole. If you then add a weight hole, the PSA will be somewhere betwee the thumb hole and the newly drilled hole. Where? That can only be determinated (get it? determinated. deter... determinated? :P) by the determinator. :)
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Re: Looking for recommendations

Post by cgeorg »

kellytehuna wrote:That can only be determinated (get it? determinated. deter... determinated? :P) by the determinator. :)
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Re: Looking for recommendations

Post by TMack »

Dont quit your day job !!!!
LMAO
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kellytehuna
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Re: Looking for recommendations

Post by kellytehuna »

Everybody's a cynic... : :shock: :D
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Re: Looking for recommendations

Post by Mo Pinel »

Adrenaline wrote: Question... Let's say I have a Symmetrical ball drilled up. And I want to fine tune the reaction now, with a Gradient Line hole. Initially I would have marked a line from my PAP to a mark I created 6 3/4 away from the Pin through the CG. Then created 4 Equa-distant points using the Pap as P1, and 'marked' MB as P4. Are you saying this is the incorrect way to mark out the Gradient Line? That I should start using the Thumb Hole as the P4? In which case it becomes impossible to actually add a P4 weight hole, limiting you to P3 for a stronger reaction?

Mo said:

On drilled symmetrical balls with no balance hole, yet, my suggestion is to use the thumb hole as the PSA for the gradient line positions since the true PSA is very close to that spot before you put in a balance hole. Having a DeTerminator will allow you to locate the PSA exactly.
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Re: Looking for recommendations

Post by Adrenaline »

Mo Pinel wrote:On drilled symmetrical balls with no balance hole, yet, my suggestion is to use the thumb hole as the PSA for the gradient line positions since the true PSA is very close to that spot before you put in a balance hole. Having a DeTerminator will allow you to locate the PSA exactly.
So in this case, is P3 the best possibility as far as increasing reaction? Or can you do something like the double thumb, where you simple measure 1.5" to the right of the thumb hole. Will they both be equally as effective, or will one be stronger than the other. (Assuming no access to a DeTerminator)
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Re: Looking for recommendations

Post by Mo Pinel »

Adrenaline wrote: So in this case, is P3 the best possibility as far as increasing reaction? Or can you do something like the double thumb, where you simple measure 1.5" to the right of the thumb hole. Will they both be equally as effective, or will one be stronger than the other. (Assuming no access to a DeTerminator)
Drill the hole on the Gradient Line, The center of the hole should be 1.5" from the edge of the thumb to get the strongest result.
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