Layout advice for Virtual Energy
Moderator: Moderators
-
- Member
- Posts: 19
- Joined: February 25th, 2011, 1:46 am
- Preferred Company: Roto Grip
Layout advice for Virtual Energy
Hello all,
With the VE being discontinued, I picked one up for safe keeping. Now contemplating how to punch it up.
First, the ball specs: 14.4lbs, 3.14 oz top, 3-3.5" pin
Now my specs (I've been learning to throw from more behind the ball, so my specs are different from the last time I posted):
Right Handed
17.5 MPH (measured via electric eyes downlane)
~250rpm (measured by eye as faster than my previous ~8 revolutions in 2.5s)
Initial axis rotation: ~55 degrees
Initial axis tilt: ~20 degrees
PAP: 4 1/2" Over, 1" Up
Span: 4 5/16" both fingers
Wood surface
THS (medium-heavy in the pattern, medium-dry outside)
My THS average is ~170
I like a predictable motion with a strong backend. As I mentioned, I'm an engineer, so I like to try and understand this stuff. Using the Wiki, I come up with the following.
Ratio (Speed Dominant) = 1:1 - 1:1.5
Angle Sum (Good bowler, Speed Dominant) = 80 ± 20
Slightly high tilt (take lower end of angle sum), but strong cover (take higher end) - lean just a little high = 85
THS = use higher ratio as dry outside, slide to 1.5:1
Asymm (so longer pin), but want to maintain energy (less than 4") = 3.5" Pin-PAP
This leads me to 55/3.5/30.
What say you, Mo & Friends? How'd I do?
Thanks,
BoB
With the VE being discontinued, I picked one up for safe keeping. Now contemplating how to punch it up.
First, the ball specs: 14.4lbs, 3.14 oz top, 3-3.5" pin
Now my specs (I've been learning to throw from more behind the ball, so my specs are different from the last time I posted):
Right Handed
17.5 MPH (measured via electric eyes downlane)
~250rpm (measured by eye as faster than my previous ~8 revolutions in 2.5s)
Initial axis rotation: ~55 degrees
Initial axis tilt: ~20 degrees
PAP: 4 1/2" Over, 1" Up
Span: 4 5/16" both fingers
Wood surface
THS (medium-heavy in the pattern, medium-dry outside)
My THS average is ~170
I like a predictable motion with a strong backend. As I mentioned, I'm an engineer, so I like to try and understand this stuff. Using the Wiki, I come up with the following.
Ratio (Speed Dominant) = 1:1 - 1:1.5
Angle Sum (Good bowler, Speed Dominant) = 80 ± 20
Slightly high tilt (take lower end of angle sum), but strong cover (take higher end) - lean just a little high = 85
THS = use higher ratio as dry outside, slide to 1.5:1
Asymm (so longer pin), but want to maintain energy (less than 4") = 3.5" Pin-PAP
This leads me to 55/3.5/30.
What say you, Mo & Friends? How'd I do?
Thanks,
BoB
-
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 3174
- Joined: January 18th, 2010, 9:21 pm
Re: Layout advice for Virtual Energy
With 20* of tilt and being so speed dominant, I wouldn't try to maintain any energy. i would use a longer pin.
I noticed you raised the ratio for a house shot. Mo usually lowers the ratio for a house shot.
I noticed you raised the ratio for a house shot. Mo usually lowers the ratio for a house shot.
- Mo Pinel
- Rest In Peace
- Posts: 10054
- Joined: January 26th, 2010, 6:10 pm
- Preferred Company: MoRich, & now RADICAL BT
- Location: Richmond, VA
Re: Layout advice for Virtual Energy
The Virtual Energy has a lower level "super" cover, so it's not that aggressive. I'd drill it 35 / 4 1/4 / 40 with a P# hole given your specs. Start with 500/2000 surface. Pay attention to elgavachon's post.SirCochese wrote:Hello all,
With the VE being discontinued, I picked one up for safe keeping. Now contemplating how to punch it up.
First, the ball specs: 14.4lbs, 3.14 oz top, 3-3.5" pin
Now my specs (I've been learning to throw from more behind the ball, so my specs are different from the last time I posted):
Right Handed
17.5 MPH (measured via electric eyes downlane)
~250rpm (measured by eye as faster than my previous ~8 revolutions in 2.5s)
Initial axis rotation: ~55 degrees
Initial axis tilt: ~20 degrees
PAP: 4 1/2" Over, 1" Up
Span: 4 5/16" both fingers
Wood surface
THS (medium-heavy in the pattern, medium-dry outside)
My THS average is ~170
I like a predictable motion with a strong backend. As I mentioned, I'm an engineer, so I like to try and understand this stuff. Using the Wiki, I come up with the following.
Ratio (Speed Dominant) = 1:1 - 1:1.5
Angle Sum (Good bowler, Speed Dominant) = 80 ± 20
Slightly high tilt (take lower end of angle sum), but strong cover (take higher end) - lean just a little high = 85
THS = use higher ratio as dry outside, slide to 1.5:1
Asymm (so longer pin), but want to maintain energy (less than 4") = 3.5" Pin-PAP
This leads me to 55/3.5/30.
What say you, Mo & Friends? How'd I do?
Thanks,
BoB
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
-
- Member
- Posts: 19
- Joined: February 25th, 2011, 1:46 am
- Preferred Company: Roto Grip
Re: Layout advice for Virtual Energy
I'm working with my coach on bringing my tilt down a bit. If I got it down to about 15, would that change your advice any?elgavachon wrote:With 20* of tilt and being so speed dominant, I wouldn't try to maintain any energy. i would use a longer pin.
I noticed you raised the ratio for a house shot. Mo usually lowers the ratio for a house shot.
Generally, I didn't think THS was particularly wet or long. I wonder why Mo would lower the ratio for a house shot? Mo?Wiki-DualAngleSweetSpot wrote: Adjust the angles for the pattern the bowler wants to use the ball on.
Dry or short patterns use higher ratio
Wet or long patterns use lower ratio
Thanks a ton,
BoB
-
- Member
- Posts: 19
- Joined: February 25th, 2011, 1:46 am
- Preferred Company: Roto Grip
Re: Layout advice for Virtual Energy
Mo, thanks so much for your advice. I'll definitely go with it, but I have some clarifying questions for my own education. Please understand I'm not challenging any advice, just trying to get my brain around how to do things for myself in the future.Mo Pinel wrote: The Virtual Energy has a lower level "super" cover, so it's not that aggressive. I'd drill it 35 / 4 1/4 / 40 with a P# hole given your specs. Start with 500/2000 surface. Pay attention to elgavachon's post.
Given that I want a defined backend motion, how does such a low drilling angle (and added surface) help me with that? I would assume these would give me a very arc'y motion.WikiDualAngle wrote: A 10° drilling technique will roll the soonest of all the effective drilling angles.
A 90° drilling technique will roll the latest of all the effective drilling angles.
Also, given my low revs, what caused you to pick 40 over a lower number?WikiDualAngle wrote: Using the minimum 20° angle will result in the drilled ball revving up the quickest and transitioning the fastest at the breakpoint.
Using the maximum 70° angle will result in the drilled ball revving up the slowest and transitioning the slowest at the breakpoint.
Again, thanks so much for all the information you provide to both me and the whole bowlingchat community!
BoB
- Mo Pinel
- Rest In Peace
- Posts: 10054
- Joined: January 26th, 2010, 6:10 pm
- Preferred Company: MoRich, & now RADICAL BT
- Location: Richmond, VA
Re: Layout advice for Virtual Energy
Look above in white!SirCochese wrote: Mo, thanks so much for your advice. I'll definitely go with it, but I have some clarifying questions for my own education. Please understand I'm not challenging any advice, just trying to get my brain around how to do things for myself in the future.
Given that I want a defined backend motion, how does such a low drilling angle (and added surface) help me with that? IT DOESN"T! THE VAL ANGLE DOES! I would assume these would give me a very arc'y motion.
Also, given my low revs, what caused you to pick 40 over a lower number? MY ASSESSMENT OF ALL THE INFO. PAYING ATTENTION TO RATIO!
Again, thanks so much for all the information you provide to both me and the whole bowlingchat community!
BoB
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
-
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 3174
- Joined: January 18th, 2010, 9:21 pm
Re: Layout advice for Virtual Energy
Wiki-DualAngleSweetSpot wrote:
Adjust the angles for the pattern the bowler wants to use the ball on.
Dry or short patterns use higher ratio
Wet or long patterns use lower ratio
Elgavachon wrote:
This is a little difficult to interpret correctly. I think it should read something like:
Dry or short patterns use higher total sums
Wet or long patterns use lower total sums
Adjust the ratios (higher or lower) to achieve the desired ball reaction shape.
Adjust the angles for the pattern the bowler wants to use the ball on.
Dry or short patterns use higher ratio
Wet or long patterns use lower ratio
Elgavachon wrote:
This is a little difficult to interpret correctly. I think it should read something like:
Dry or short patterns use higher total sums
Wet or long patterns use lower total sums
Adjust the ratios (higher or lower) to achieve the desired ball reaction shape.
Last edited by elgavachon on April 9th, 2011, 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Member
- Posts: 19
- Joined: February 25th, 2011, 1:46 am
- Preferred Company: Roto Grip
Re: Layout advice for Virtual Energy
Agreed, but I never saw a description of what the ratios actually do. I assume using the ideal ratio gives you the consistent arc "benchmark" type shape? What happens when you raise the ratio? lower it?elgavachon wrote:Wiki-DualAngleSweetSpot wrote:
Adjust the angles for the pattern the bowler wants to use the ball on.
Dry or short patterns use higher ratio
Wet or long patterns use lower ratio
Elgavachon:
This is a little difficult to interpret correctly. I think it should read something like:
Dry or short patterns use higher total sums
Wet or long patterns use lower total sums
Adjust the ratios (higher or lower) to achieve the desired ball reaction shape.
Thanks!
-
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 3174
- Joined: January 18th, 2010, 9:21 pm
Re: Layout advice for Virtual Energy
You want to raise or lower sums within the benchmark range which fits your specs. There is also a high and a low ratio range for your specs. If you use the highest sums (within your benchmark in combination with the highest ratio (also within your range) you will get a long and hard reaction but you need dryer boards or it will skid past the break. This is a brief way to do it:SirCochese wrote: Agreed, but I never saw a description of what the ratios actually do. I assume using the ideal ratio gives you the consistent arc "benchmark" type shape? What happens when you raise the ratio? lower it?
Thanks!
long and hard (dry) =highest sums with largest ratio
control (dry)= highest sums with lowest ratio (could always use P1 hole for more)
midlane control (oil)= lowest sums with lowest ratio
early and strong (oil)=lowest sums with highest ratio ( could always use P3-P4 hole for more)
These would give you a starting place for calculations which you could further tweak for the shape you were after.
Last edited by elgavachon on April 9th, 2011, 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 3174
- Joined: January 18th, 2010, 9:21 pm
Re: Layout advice for Virtual Energy
Mo will say "It's just math"elgavachon wrote: You want to raise or lower sums within the benchmark range which fits your specs. There is also a high and a low ratio range for your specs. If you use the highest sums (within your benchmark in combination with the highest ratio (also within your range) you will get a long and hard reaction but you need dryer boards or it will skid past the break. This is a brief way to do it:
long and hard (dry) =highest sums with largest ratio
control (dry)= highest sums with lowest ratio (could always use P1 hole for more)
midlane control (oil)= lowest sums with lowest ratio
early and strong (oil)=lowest sums with highest ratio ( could always use P3-P4 hole for more)
-
- Member
- Posts: 19
- Joined: February 25th, 2011, 1:46 am
- Preferred Company: Roto Grip
Re: Layout advice for Virtual Energy
I would agree that it's just math. Unfortunately, I learned that there's more than one way to solve a differential equation.
-
- Member
- Posts: 19
- Joined: February 25th, 2011, 1:46 am
- Preferred Company: Roto Grip
Re: Layout advice for Virtual Energy
So I got the ball and drew this layout on it. It ends up that the CG is about 1.5" left of the line connecting the pin and the MB. This layout puts the GC nearly in the center of grip. Should I be concerned about that?Mo Pinel wrote:The Virtual Energy has a lower level "super" cover, so it's not that aggressive. I'd drill it 35 / 4 1/4 / 40 with a P# hole given your specs. Start with 500/2000 surface. Pay attention to elgavachon's post.
Thanks,
BoB
Re: Layout advice for Virtual Energy
I love it when the cg is in the centre of the grip, makes doing balance holes very easy!
Right handed ~450 rpm 16 mph 12° tilt 65° rotation
Virtual Gravity Nano - 35x4.5x45
Critical Theory - 70x4x40
Prodigy - 60x3.5x30
607A - 85x2.5x35
Slingshot - 60x5x40
Virtual Gravity Nano - 35x4.5x45
Critical Theory - 70x4x40
Prodigy - 60x3.5x30
607A - 85x2.5x35
Slingshot - 60x5x40
-
- Member
- Posts: 19
- Joined: February 25th, 2011, 1:46 am
- Preferred Company: Roto Grip
Re: Layout advice for Virtual Energy
Cool. One other question. With this layout, I'll be drilling the ring finger very close to the pin (within 1/4"). Should I worry about cracking or any other badness? If so, would pushing the pin to pap to 4.5" (from 4.25") significantly change the drilling? That would give me a little safety margin.
- Mo Pinel
- Rest In Peace
- Posts: 10054
- Joined: January 26th, 2010, 6:10 pm
- Preferred Company: MoRich, & now RADICAL BT
- Location: Richmond, VA
Re: Layout advice for Virtual Energy
Moving the pin slightly to achieve a safewty margin is fine.SirCochese wrote:Cool. One other question. With this layout, I'll be drilling the ring finger very close to the pin (within 1/4"). Should I worry about cracking or any other badness? If so, would pushing the pin to pap to 4.5" (from 4.25") significantly change the drilling? That would give me a little safety margin.
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)