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 Post subject: Reversible Layout
 Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:41 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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grip_center.jpg

According to the USBC, the grip centre for a thumbless bowler is between the finger holes, as show in the attached diagramme. As long as the rules for static weights are followed, the bowler is allowed to orient the ball in any direction. This raises some technical questions for me; a slower speed, rev-dominant, thumbless, two-handed bowler with a high track.

Pin position: Where should the pin be placed in order to get a useful reaction in two orientations?

CG position: Where should the CG mark be placed in order to comply with static weight rules?

Extra hole: If one were needed, where would be the safest place to drill it?

(If you don't like this one, I have another one in mind. ^_* )


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 Post subject: Re: Reversible Layout
 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:50 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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gyoza wrote:
Attachment:
grip_center.jpg

According to the USBC, the grip centre for a thumbless bowler is between the finger holes, as show in the attached diagramme. As long as the rules for static weights are followed, the bowler is allowed to orient the ball in any direction. This raises some technical questions for me; a slower speed, rev-dominant, thumbless, two-handed bowler with a high track.

Pin position: Where should the pin be placed in order to get a useful reaction in two orientations?

CG position: Where should the CG mark be placed in order to comply with static weight rules?

Extra hole: If one were needed, where would be the safest place to drill it?

(If you don't like this one, I have another one in mind. ^_* )


Looks to me like you're an international member. The spelling of diagramme is a give away. I'll need your delivery specs, including your PAP to give you an accurate answer. We'll probably go with out a balance hole with your general specs.


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 Post subject: Re: Reversible Layout
 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:55 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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Mo Pinel wrote:

Looks to me like you're an international member. The spelling of diagramme is a give away. I'll need your delivery specs, including your PAP to give you an accurate answer. We'll probably go with out a balance hole with your general specs.

Just saying that I shouldn't need a balance hole answers one question. Any time I picked up a ball with a balance hole, I had trouble keeping it on the right side of the lane. heh

I was just hoping for a general layout example. For example, a layout that would roll more straight in one orientation and hook more in the other orientation.

Still working on generating more speed, but on lanes that indicate speed, it's been as low as 13mph.

As for my PAP, I only know that I usually track close to the grip holes. I just learned to c0ck my wrist to lower my track a little. (That changes the PAP, yeah?) The interesting thing is, when I lower my track I actually get some track flare. Usually I only get about a 1/4" wide oil ring. That's using a basic two-hander layout, if there is such a thing.

Attaching a photo of my current reactive ball, a 14-pound Tropical Heat hybrid at 2000 Abralon plus polish. Based on my reasoning... The thumb hole is there in case my wife wants to borrow the ball. The CG is shifted mostly in case a balance hole is added later. The pin is high because it's common for me to have trouble getting the ball down the lane without crossing over.

(As for being "international," my father was American and my mother Japanese. Born in Germany, but left as a baby. Spent some time living in England. Mainly, I'm an American captive of New Jersey. haha Might move soon though.)


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 Post subject: Re: Reversible Layout
 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:01 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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I dont think you'll be getting much help until you supply the requested information.
We dont screw around here.

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 Post subject: Re: Reversible Layout
 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:15 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
I dont think you'll be getting much help until you supply the requested information.
We dont screw around here.

Yeah, I kind of thought that based on the phrase, "No bull, just bowling!" haha Should this topic be in a general discussion area then?

I just don't have accurate technical details to share. As far as I know, it's changing over time as I practise more.


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 Post subject: Re: Reversible Layout
 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:22 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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As far as im concerned, without useful information, you wont get a useful recommendation, regardless of the section of the site this is posted on.

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 Post subject: Re: Reversible Layout
 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:44 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
As far as im concerned, without useful information, you wont get a useful recommendation, regardless of the section of the site this is posted on.


Yeah. I guess I'm pretty much on my own then. Thanks.

(At least I have a starting point knowing the current reaction of my ball. My guess is that just floating the pin/CG somewhere around the fingers holes would be "legal" and produce two different reactions. What those reactions will be, I have no clue! I'd have to find out from hands-on experience.)


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 Post subject: Re: Reversible Layout
 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:42 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
As far as im concerned, without useful information, you wont get a useful recommendation, regardless of the section of the site this is posted on.


I was curious about this info as well for a two-fingered friend. Since we won't get an answer based on what the other guy was giving us, I will supply his stats.

15-16 MPH, rev dominant (dont have the exact number on this one, but its pretty clear)
~10* tilt
~75* axis rotation

We bowl on synthetics that start medium heavy but break down fairly quickly.

How can this bowler successfully get 2 for the price of 1 layout?

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Speed - 17-18 monitor
Rev Rate - 375
Rotation - 65
Tilt - 12


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 Post subject: Re: Reversible Layout
 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:57 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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Bahshay,

A PAP would still be necessary...

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 Post subject: Re: Reversible Layout
 Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:06 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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Bahshay wrote:
MegaMav wrote:
As far as im concerned, without useful information, you wont get a useful recommendation, regardless of the section of the site this is posted on.


I was curious about this info as well for a two-fingered friend. Since we won't get an answer based on what the other guy was giving us, I will supply his stats.

15-16 MPH, rev dominant (dont have the exact number on this one, but its pretty clear)
~10* tilt
~75* axis rotation

We bowl on synthetics that start medium heavy but break down fairly quickly.

How can this bowler successfully get 2 for the price of 1 layout?


If were still trying to be able to reverse the grip when desired, we'll need an axis point. I'd say get a short pin ball and put the pin right next to the ring finger (straight across). The rub will be when you reverse the inserts and the pin ends up next to the middle finger. If the pin ends up more than 5 1/2" from his PAP, it may roll over the holes. You'll have to try it and find out.


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 Post subject: Re: Reversible Layout
 Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:41 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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If we get a PAP measured, should it be measured relative to the middle of a standard grip, or the middle of a thumbless grip?

(I rolled a ball drilled for a left-hander and it did roll over the holes in one of the orientations. The pin is about 1" to the left of the middle finger, which is further than my track usually is.)


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 Post subject: Re: Reversible Layout
 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:07 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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gyoza wrote:
If we get a PAP measured, should it be measured relative to the middle of a standard grip, or the middle of a thumbless grip?

(I rolled a ball drilled for a left-hander and it did roll over the holes in one of the orientations. The pin is about 1" to the left of the middle finger, which is further than my track usually is.)


Measure the PAP from the middle of the finger holes, if you're not drilling a thumb hole. Reading what you said about the left handed ball, looks like reversing may not be possible. Please post your PAP.


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 Post subject: Re: Reversible Layout
 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:37 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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Mo Pinel wrote:
gyoza wrote:
If we get a PAP measured, should it be measured relative to the middle of a standard grip, or the middle of a thumbless grip?

(I rolled a ball drilled for a left-hander and it did roll over the holes in one of the orientations. The pin is about 1" to the left of the middle finger, which is further than my track usually is.)


Measure the PAP from the middle of the finger holes, if you're not drilling a thumb hole. Reading what you said about the left handed ball, looks like reversing may not be possible. Please post your PAP.


I'll work on getting my PAP. Sounds like something everyone should know. ^_-

Instead of a left/right pin position, what about an up/down layout? Would that cause a significant enough of a reaction difference to bother with? (I know this is a very crude way to think of layouts.)

BTW, I was just trying to analyze a recent layout that you did for a two-hander. (Storm Natural.)


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 Post subject: Re: Reversible Layout
 Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:06 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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gyoza wrote:
Mo Pinel wrote:
gyoza wrote:
If we get a PAP measured, should it be measured relative to the middle of a standard grip, or the middle of a thumbless grip?

(I rolled a ball drilled for a left-hander and it did roll over the holes in one of the orientations. The pin is about 1" to the left of the middle finger, which is further than my track usually is.)


Measure the PAP from the middle of the finger holes, if you're not drilling a thumb hole. Reading what you said about the left handed ball, looks like reversing may not be possible. Please post your PAP.


I'll work on getting my PAP. Sounds like something everyone should know. ^_-

Instead of a left/right pin position, what about an up/down layout? Would that cause a significant enough of a reaction difference to bother with? WITH THE ONE WITH THE PIN BELOW THE FINGERS, IT WILL PROBABLY FLARE OVER THE FINGER HOLES. (I know this is a very crude way to think of layouts.)

BTW, I was just trying to analyze a recent layout that you did for a two-hander. (Storm Natural.)


Answer in white above.


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 Post subject: Re: Reversible Layout
 Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:28 am Post Number: #15 Post
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Mo Pinel wrote:
I'll need your delivery specs, including your PAP to give you an accurate answer.


OK, I finally have some numbers. Tilt is 13*. PAP is 5 7/8" over and 1/4" up. I believe that was measured like a standard grip.

(My track was all over the place today and I just randomly picked one with a solid oil line. The next few shots tracked very close to the marked oil line. Maybe a tiny bit closer to the thumb hole.)

Hey, by the way, I'm up in NJ with Tony Rado and Vince Mazzanti Jr. if those names ring a bell. (Someone up here needs to be the clueless one with a low average, so that's my job. heh)


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 Post subject: Re: Reversible Layout
 Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:13 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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gyoza wrote:
Mo Pinel wrote:
I'll need your delivery specs, including your PAP to give you an accurate answer.


OK, I finally have some numbers. Tilt is 13*. PAP is 5 7/8" over and 1/4" up. I believe that was measured like a standard grip.

(My track was all over the place today and I just randomly picked one with a solid oil line. The next few shots tracked very close to the marked oil line. Maybe a tiny bit closer to the thumb hole.)

Hey, by the way, I'm up in NJ with Tony Rado and Vince Mazzanti Jr. if those names ring a bell. (Someone up here needs to be the clueless one with a low average, so that's my job. heh)


Know both of them really well. Saw them at my seminar in York last Fri. The problem with trying to reverse the layout is that with the pin next to the middle finger when the grip is reversed, the pin will be more than 6 3/4" from the PAP which will cause it the roll over the holes, I think. Reverse the grips in a ball with the pin next to the ring finger and see if it does roll over the holes.


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 Post subject: Re: Reversible Layout
 Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 3:30 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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I wonder if using something like the aggressive plastic ball layout would do anything interesting. However, the recent discussion with Mr. Rado about the preferred spin axis and mass bias make me really question the usefulness of turning the grip around. Maybe I'm already trying to get too much out of one ball.


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 Post subject: Re: Reversible Layout
 Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:59 pm Post Number: #18 Post
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gyoza wrote:
I wonder if using something like the aggressive plastic ball layout would do anything interesting. However, the recent discussion with Mr. Rado about the preferred spin axis and mass bias make me really question the usefulness of turning the grip around. Maybe I'm already trying to get too much out of one ball.


I think so, but I was just trying to assist you.


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 Post subject: Re: Reversible Layout
 Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:06 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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Mo Pinel wrote:
gyoza wrote:
I wonder if using something like the aggressive plastic ball layout would do anything interesting. However, the recent discussion with Mr. Rado about the preferred spin axis and mass bias make me really question the usefulness of turning the grip around. Maybe I'm already trying to get too much out of one ball.


I think so, but I was just trying to assist you.


Thank you. At least I have my PAP now and a plan to just stick with unidirectional layouts. ^_^


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