Sum of Angles

Which layout is right for me?

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FredSoDak
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Sum of Angles

Post by FredSoDak »

I bowl in league on wood lanes; having a favorite few balls; all with similar layouts that have angle sums approximately 110.

Swerve FX 70 x 3 x 40
Saber Pearl 60 x 3 x 50
Slant Pearl 70 x 3 x 45
Nomad Dagger (85) x 3 x 30
Pivot 60 x 3.5 x 40
505C2 60 x 3.5 x 40
Ogre Pearl (75) x 4.5 x 40
Big Bang SE (75) x 4 x 55

I am not currently using all of these -- some are retired (damaged) -- the parenthesis indicate angle to thumb.

I have also been using these on synthetic lanes, when the wife & I have been to out of town weekend ladder tourneys (we are now both retired); to limited success -- the Slant Pearl & Pivot were best on synthetics. Have adjusted surfaces from 1000, 2000, & 3000. I wanted a synthetic only ball, as a suggestion, purchased a Results Plus and drilled it to sum at 105 with 55 x 50. The Results Plus was a dud for me; even with trying different finishes. Redrilled to 70 x 40 and it was marginally better; however, it was usable on wood lanes with this drilling.

So now I have the Results Plus sitting here and have been drawing different angles on it; contemplating on what "new synthetic ball" to purchase and what type of layout to place on it. I noticed that the sum of angles layout at 90 was almost identical to sum of angles at 115. It would seem that adding almost 30% to the sum, actually achieved very little for me in layout difference.

90 == 40 x 3.25 x 50
115 == 55 x 3.25 x 60

If I can properly get an image, it will show the vertical midline almost identical & the horizontal midline only about 1/2 inch in separation.
So my question -- will I notice a difference in the 2 layouts, with such a minor difference in horizontal spacing & an almost 30% increase in sum of angles?
Screenshot 2021-12-09 at 12-18-05 Screenshot 2021-12-09 at 12-16-48 IMG_20211209_120436_BURST01_COVER jpg (JPEG Image, 3072[...].png
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EricHartwell
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Re: Sum of Angles

Post by EricHartwell »

Welcome to BowlingChat
FredSoDak 55-3.25-60.PNG
FredSoDak 40-3.25-50.PNG
Yes you will notice the difference.
The 40-3.25-50 will rev up sooner.

Do you know your release specs.
Check out this link...

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=373

For me to really help you I need to know your release specs.
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Eric Hartwell

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
FredSoDak
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Medium Oil Ball: DV8 Creed

Re: Sum of Angles

Post by FredSoDak »

Thanks Eric

If I remember from last spring when wife did some videos.
45° rotation (I am not consistent, but this is very approximate)
11° tilt (fairly certain on this accuracy)
rev rate is lower, speed dominant, trying to time 200-250 range (again, not entirely precise)
speed on auto scoring system (in 3 different out of town centers) mostly 16.5 - 16.8 mph, probably in front of pins.

I am small frame built & just reached retirement age -- had my driller change some pitch/span to adjust for less joint flexibility -- no more hand pain when bowling. use 14 lb & semi finger tip (vise inserts 31/32" P/S power lift / semi).

Right handed bowler span/pitches (cut to cut).
MF 4 3/16 span, 1/8 reverse, 3/8 left (#5 1/2 insert)
RF 4 1/4 span, 1/2 reverse, 3/8 right (#4 insert)
Thumb 3/8 reverse, 0 lateral (15/16" size hole)

I no longer have the videos, sorry about that.
Thank you for the welcome.
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Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
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Re: Sum of Angles

Post by EricHartwell »

The Slant and Pivot are working better for you because of the Higher Ratio matches up better with your lower Tilt.

The layouts you wanted modeled are Control layouts

Sweetspot 90* Totals 1.75:1 Ratio

Asymmetrical Layouts
Totally Strong ............. 50-4.5-20
Midlane .................... 40-4-30
Benchmark ................ 55-4-35
Long and Strong .......... 75-3-35
Control .....................55-3-55
low flare .................. 75-2.25-35

Symmetrical Layouts
Benchmark ............... xx-4-30
Control ................... xx-4-50
low flare ................. xx-5-30
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
FredSoDak
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Axis Rotation: 50
Heavy Oil Ball: DV8 Intimidator Pearl
Medium Oil Ball: DV8 Creed

Re: Sum of Angles

Post by FredSoDak »

Thank you again.

I can definitely see the symmetrical low flare with a 5" pin to pap. Been there & done that. Drilling guy watched me bowl and said that I should not have pin to pap over 4". It was the 505C2 (very, very low asymetrical), which was then plugged & redrilled and worked great on the wood lanes with the layout indicated in first post. It now has deep grooves from ball return damage. Bowled some of my highest scoring games, though not most consistent with that ball.

Yes, the Slant Pearl & Pivot Hybrid were money makers for me. Won the SD USBC Senior state tourney a few years back with the Pivot, was able to use it all 6 games. The Pivot is now one of the damaged balls. We basically bowl on 2 pattern types for synthetics -- typical house 38' pattern & 40'-44' "shot of the week" sport patterns. This is our first year of doing the shot of the week -- it covers about 6-8 patterns throughout the winter.

Since the Slant needs redrilled with my new span & pitches, is the reason why I was playing around with layouts (using the Results for my "chalkboard"). My proshop operator says I need a strong solid ball for the sport patterns. I also have a Roto Grip Wildstreak that I purchased on a covid closeout sale with some of my covid stimulus check money & it is not drilled.

The ball with my highest average this year on wood lanes is the Saber Pearl; the Nomad Dagger (redrilled for new span/pitches) plays like a hockey stick (it is fun); the Results Plus is a work in (not so good) progress -- it needs some oil, but does not like high friction wood. We have a 42' house pattern on our wood lanes. The Swerve FX was sold to someone that needed to drop down in weight (his span is very similar). So the 3 I have in use now are Saber, Dagger, & Results+.

What I am looking for are 2 balls to use on the 2 types of synthetic lane patterns; as the Results Plus with surface changes on both drillings did not seem to fit my style. Would you suggest I try the Wildstreak & (redrilled) Slant and/or possibly a strong solid? Would the Black Widow 2.0 or the Rubicon (solid) fit requirement for a strong solid? I also would like to have one of the balls with the control layout -- which ball would you suggest for that?

And thanks for helping out a small town hick, out in the middle of nowhere. Your time is appreciated. Now off to clean up, eat, drink, & bowl. Thursday is our beer drinking.. err bowling night.
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Re: Sum of Angles

Post by kajmk »

Eric "plays really good for free" He is truly an asset to the sport and an example of sportsmanship.



Good bowling tonight!
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
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EricHartwell
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Re: Sum of Angles

Post by EricHartwell »

kajmk wrote: December 10th, 2021, 1:45 am Eric "plays really good for free" He is truly an asset to the sport and an example of sportsmanship.
John, Thank you for the kind words.

FredSoDak....

I don't sell bowlingballs nor do I get paid to recommend so I try to stay away from making specific ball recommendations.
With that said you have mentioned the Widow 2.0 and the Rubicon.
I would put the Long and Strong 75-3-35 on the Widow 2.0
As for the Rubicon, I don't really like that choice. It is basically a Symmetrical ball at 14#
Eric Hartwell

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
FredSoDak
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Re: Sum of Angles

Post by FredSoDak »

Thank you for the help Eric. I did find one of the videos from last spring. It was very grainy & not close up. It was one, where I was looking at my feet placement. You are able to see the white tape on my PAP. My axis rotation is more like 60° and definitely not 45°. I apologize for that incorrect information. My driller will be in this Wednesday evening and I am taking the Slant Pearl to have it plugged -- it needs to have my new span/pitches on it. I do not have a ball with the "midlane" layout; so with the updated axis rotation data, is there an update needed for the Midlane asymmetrical layout? The Slant specs are RG = 2.49 & Diff. = .040 & Int. Diff. = .025 for the 14lb. I use the Slant Pearl with an 800/3000 finish, no polish. I would not be using this ball on our house shot wood surface.
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Re: Sum of Angles

Post by EricHartwell »

Yes the higher Rotation affects the Totals, Ratio and Pin to PAP

Updated Arsenal List
Sweetspot 85* Totals 1.5:1 Ratio

Asymmetrical Layouts
Totally Strong ............. 45-5-20
Midlane .................... 30-4.5-35
Benchmark ................ 50-4.25-35
Long and Strong .......... 70-4-35
Control .................... 50-3.5-55
low flare .................. 70-2.25-35

Symmetrical Layouts
Benchmark .......... .... xx-4-30
Control ................... xx-4-50
low flare ................. xx-5-30

Midlane Layout
FredSoDak 30-4.5-35.PNG
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Eric Hartwell

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
FredSoDak
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Re: Sum of Angles

Post by FredSoDak »

Thank you so much for the help. Yes, that image shows my oil track line perfectly.
FredSoDak
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Re: Sum of Angles

Post by FredSoDak »

Wanted to give an update...

Redrilled the Radical Slant Pearl with the Benchmark and really like it; on both wood & synthetic house shots. It definitely is stronger than the 60 x 3 x 50 on the Saber Pearl (my most used ball). Both of these pearls have the polish knocked off, years ago, with a 3000 pad.

New Honey Badger Intensity with a combo midlane/control layout at 35 x 3.5 x 45 I enjoy on our "shot of the week" sport patterns on synthetic lanes. That S70 coverstock is smooth; almost like a solid version of the Soaker Pearl cover on the Slant. In fact, my wife's S74 Pearl cover on the Hard Drive seems to have many reaction shape properties that are similar to the Soaker Pearl cover. Had very good luck with Intensity on the Highway To Hell pattern.

My local Pro Shop had a DV8 Intimidator Pearl on sale; it will be drilled this coming Saturday. Thinking of using the benchmark layout with a shorter pin to pap of 3.5".
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Re: Sum of Angles

Post by EricHartwell »

What is your thinking behind the shorter Pin to PAP?
Eric Hartwell

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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Re: Sum of Angles

Post by FredSoDak »

Thank you for all the work you have done in putting together recommended layouts for me Eric.

I really liked the Pivot and wanted to use the same pin to pap on it, but with your benchmark angles. The Pivot was 60x3.5x40. Hoping the Intimidator at 50x3.5x35 would have a similar look. I do struggle with accurate pocket hits with the longer pin; seem to have more leeway for mistakes with shorter pin to paps. When I am consistent, the Slant hits good; but after some beer frames on Thursday nights, I find myself reaching for something more forgiving.

Slant Pearl 50 x 4.25 x 35
Intimidator Pearl 50 x 3.5 x 35
Saber Pearl 60 x 3 x 50

Was really impressed how the Slant became much stronger than the old 70 x 3 x 45 layout. Sometimes it can be a touch too much now on our wood lanes.

Results Plus & Nomad Dagger have been donated to my old home town alley, operated out of the American Legion hall basement. The high school in my old home town still has a PE class in the winter for bowling. Operator was happy to see some 14# reactives being donated to the high school kids for use.

Pro Shop did not have a Widow 2.0 in 14#, but did have a Web MB. I like your suggestion for the Long/Strong; should that still apply here? Or would I also have satisfactory play with it laid out Total Strong?
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Re: Sum of Angles

Post by FredSoDak »

Had our Pro Shop drill the Web MB with Totally Strong 45 x 3.5 x 20 (shorter pin to pap; same angles). Second time out, was on a Shot of the Week pattern 39.5', flat edge to edge, oil to end of pattern, no buff. Head oil was lighter than midlane oil -- think of the "Red Square" Kegel Landmark Pattern in reverse (if that makes sense).

4 games of qualifying, surprisingly put me in 4th. Won first 2 head-to-head matches against 5th & 3rd place qualifiers; lost to 2nd place qualifier. Was very happy. Used the Web MB for all games, except game 2 of qualifying where used DV8 Intimidator Pearl (no continuation through pocket). The Web MB plays like my old Nomad Dagger on steroids -- very little deflection; very continuous -- moves later downlane (even on house shot, where took it out for practice before league on fresh oil 42' pattern -- did not use it that night on league, did not like the power lift inserts & replaced them with power oval inserts).

The Web MB, with Eric's advice, paid for itself in its first tournament outing. Thank You Eric.
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Re: Sum of Angles

Post by 44boyd »

Deflecting probably because the ball wasn’t getting in the roll phase with the shorter pin selection than recommended
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Re: Sum of Angles

Post by FredSoDak »

That could be a definite possibility for that strange sport pattern that day. Weird that the Web MB with 3.5" had continuation; but Intimidator with the same 3.5" had quite a bit of deflection. Intimidator does satisfactory on the wood lanes 42' typical house pattern at my home town lanes. Web MB goes long on the same wood lanes, but does make the turn into the pocket -- almost too much turn to be controllable on those high friction back ends.

So then, shorter pin to pap on asyms will delay the roll phase & the longer 4.25" would make it roll sooner? Or is it simply the 3.5" pin worked on the Web MB because the angles are different than the 3.5" pin on the Intimidator?

In reading in the wiki & on the Ball Talk forum, found this...
"The ball will have effective hitting power as long as it still has axis tilt. The ball stops hitting when axis tilt reaches 0°."
and
"Long Pin to PAP Asymmetrical drillings burn Tilt faster, I consider that to assist gravity.
Short Pin to PAP Asymmetrical drillings make Tilt burn off slower effectively resisting gravity."

Is the reference to hitting power conducive to continuation through the pins & less deflection?
Is the Intimidator burning off tilt faster than the Web MB?

Trying to learn more, thanks.

Web MB ...... 45 x 3.5 x 20
Intimidator .. 50 x 3.5 x 35
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EricHartwell
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Location: Michigan

Re: Sum of Angles

Post by EricHartwell »

FredSoDak wrote: March 22nd, 2022, 3:14 am That could be a definite possibility for that strange sport pattern that day. Weird that the Web MB with 3.5" had continuation; but Intimidator with the same 3.5" had quite a bit of deflection. Intimidator does satisfactory on the wood lanes 42' typical house pattern at my home town lanes. Web MB goes long on the same wood lanes, but does make the turn into the pocket -- almost too much turn to be controllable on those high friction back ends.
I think you have a pretty good set up for a 2 ball set. I wouldn't want both balls to carry equally well on the same condition.
I thinking you can use the Intimidator when the Web MB starts leaving flat 10 pins.


So then, shorter pin to pap on asyms will delay the roll phase & the longer 4.25" would make it roll sooner? Or is it simply the 3.5" pin worked on the Web MB because the angles are different than the 3.5" pin on the Intimidator?
For sure. The Intimidator Ratio is 1.25:1 whereas the Web MB is a 2.25:1 Ratio. The Intimidator's core has a slower reaction to friction.

In reading in the wiki & on the Ball Talk forum, found this...
"The ball will have effective hitting power as long as it still has axis tilt. The ball stops hitting when axis tilt reaches 0°."
and
"Long Pin to PAP Asymmetrical drillings burn Tilt faster, I consider that to assist gravity.
Short Pin to PAP Asymmetrical drillings make Tilt burn off slower effectively resisting gravity."
This is also true for Rotation.

Is the reference to hitting power conducive to continuation through the pins & less deflection?
Is the Intimidator burning off tilt faster than the Web MB?

Trying to learn more, thanks.

Web MB ...... 45 x 3.5 x 20
Intimidator .. 50 x 3.5 x 35
The Higher Totals with the Intimidator also help cause the later roll. I surmise that the Intimidator was deflecting because it was still trying to hook.
Comments in color above
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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Axis Rotation: 50
Heavy Oil Ball: DV8 Intimidator Pearl
Medium Oil Ball: DV8 Creed

Re: Sum of Angles

Post by FredSoDak »

More success. This past Saturday's Shot of the Week was a 33' pattern. Very similar to the 2021 USBC Junior Gold Advancers (All Divisions) pattern listed on Kegel, but without the forward oil #9. The volume & ratio were almost identical to this pattern. It was the DV8 Intimidator Pearl that won 3rd place money.

Had access to an armadillo & did multiple throws with both Web MB & Intimidator. My PAP seems to have changed; I previously calculated PAP from before I did my pitch changes & also on a low flare ball. Seems these new stronger balls, along with the new pitches have changed my PAP & Tilt.

Pro Shop guy said that many of his older bowlers have their PAP measurements change every few years;... sucks getting older. I seem to loft the ball more now also -- more air time before it hits the lane oil.

New PAP & Tilt --- 4 1/4 x 1 7/8 up and 7°.

I am simply happy that I am cashing in tournaments again. Thank you Eric.
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Re: Sum of Angles

Post by FredSoDak »

44boyd or Eric or others.

I seem to struggle in getting asymmetrical balls with long pin to pap to reach the breakpoint early enough to reach the pocket. Whenever I use a ball with a longer than approximately 3.75" pin to pap; it goes long, makes a turn into the 3 pin, coming in behind the head pin. I was able to use a few balls from friends, with different layouts and it did not matter the pin location; whether it was close to my val or past the span midline (pin buffer 1" to 2.5"). These balls had the psa in a "normal" location, mostly about 2" right of thumb. The results were very similar to balls that I have rolled in previous years; longer pin to paps on asymmetricals (especially longer than 4") go too long before making a right to left move. I can play the lanes with these balls, but it requires a much straighter line between the 2nd & 3rd arrows down to the 12 board.

Pin to pap distances of 3" - 3.5" allow more freedom of play with angles, requiring less precision. When playing the same straighter line as described above -- it will turn left earlier & hit the 1-2 left side of head pin with pin to pap less than 3".

I was under the impression that longer pin to pap drillings would burn off tilt & rotation on asymmetricals, help them reach roll earlier, and achieve more overall hook. It seems as if the longer pin to pap lengthens the distance to roll phase and provides me with less overall hook. Where am I wrong?

80°-95° is the range for my angle sums, where I find optimum results (thanks Eric); not the previous 100°-115° that I formerly used. Now I am wanting to fine tune my pin to pap; however, I need more understanding why longer pin to paps are not achieving desirable results.
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Re: Sum of Angles

Post by EricHartwell »

FredSoDak wrote: April 5th, 2022, 7:47 pm 44boyd or Eric or others.

I seem to struggle in getting asymmetrical balls with long pin to pap to reach the breakpoint early enough to reach the pocket. Whenever I use a ball with a longer than approximately 3.75" pin to pap; it goes long, makes a turn into the 3 pin, coming in behind the head pin. I was able to use a few balls from friends, with different layouts and it did not matter the pin location; whether it was close to my val or past the span midline (pin buffer 1" to 2.5"). These balls had the psa in a "normal" location, mostly about 2" right of thumb. The results were very similar to balls that I have rolled in previous years; longer pin to paps on asymmetricals (especially longer than 4") go too long before making a right to left move.More Surface I can play the lanes with these balls, but it requires a much straighter line between the 2nd & 3rd arrows down to the 12 board.
Straighter is supposed to be greater.

Pin to pap distances of 3" - 3.5" allow more freedom of play with angles, requiring less precision. When playing the same straighter line as described above -- it will turn left earlier & hit the 1-2 left side of head pin with pin to pap less than 3" & hit the 1-3 pocket with 3.25" pin to pap.

I was under the impression that longer pin to pap drillings would burn off tilt & rotation on asymmetricals, True help them reach roll earlier,True and achieve more overall hook.Not True. The shorter hook phase and getting the ball to roll earlier result in less boards covered It seems as if the longer pin to pap lengthens the distance from hook to roll phase and provides me with less overall hook. Where am I wrong?

80°-95° is the range for my angle sums, where I find optimum results (thanks Eric); not the previous 100°-115° that I formerly used. Now I am wanting to fine tune my pin to pap; however, I need more understanding why longer pin to paps are not achieving desirable results.
Use 3" to 4" Pin to PAP for more hook, side to side and 4" to 5" for more forward roll
comments in color above.

You are on the higher side of rotation which pushes the ball reaction further down the lane.
I failed to see anything about surface prep. Sounds to me like you are using balls that are too shiny.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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