Sum of Angles

Which layout is right for me?

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44boyd
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Joined: January 25th, 2017, 3:10 am
Preferred Company: Radical, Brunswick
Location: Valrico Florida

Re: Sum of Angles

Post by 44boyd »

I agree with Eric, need more surface with your speed. If you’re trying to cover boards at 16.5mph your footwork has to slow down to give the ball time to hook and/or more surface is needed to slow the ball down
Stacy
FredSoDak
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Posts: 23
Joined: December 9th, 2021, 5:08 pm
THS Average: 185
Sport Average: 180
Positive Axis Point: 4.5" x 1.5" up
Speed: 16.5 pindeck
Rev Rate: 225
Axis Tilt: 9
Axis Rotation: 50
Heavy Oil Ball: DV8 Intimidator Pearl
Medium Oil Ball: DV8 Creed

Re: Sum of Angles

Post by FredSoDak »

Thank you both for the quick responses.

Approach speed -- yes, I do sometimes need to slow down my footwork.

Surface prep for our wood lanes is 800/800/3000 on ball spinner, using 6 sided method. First 2 800's @ 20 secs; next 2 800's @ 15 secs; last 2 3000's @ 10 secs. No polish. Resurface balls at beginning of league in September & at mid season break over Christmas/New Year holiday. Will scuff balls by hand with 3000 pad when "grunge" cannot be removed by simple cleaning methods. I did try an experiment once, by using the 800 for all 6 sides; it killed back end shape & entry angle. I have used a 2000 grit for last 2 sides on synthetic lanes and did not see a noticable difference from the 3000; on wood surface, the 2000 was very smoothed out shape.

It is becoming more clear to me now, I hope. If I understand correctly -- the longer pin to pap does indeed get the ball to the roll phase earlier; however, it is at the detriment of the hook phase, which is reduced/shortened; and actually results in less boards covered.

I have been incorrectly interpreting the graphs on the analysis of pin-to-pap distances (example 919C @ 50° x X" x 30°).
Pin to PAP ...... Total Flare
2 1/4 ........ 3.8"
3 3/8 ........ 5.1"
4 1/2 ........ 6.1"
5 5/8 ........ 6.5"

And I will get more length with less backend, in contrast to the ball motion study. Would it be correct, that to achieve the same results of the ball motion study, that I would need to raise my Val drill angle (over the 30° of the study & 35° of my benchmark), in order to lengthen the hook phase? Or will I simply not be able to achieve results similar to the ball motion study, because of my release specs?

Getting older & not so limber sucks -- having to readjust my game to be competitive -- I used to be able to change approach & release more readily -- now I need more layout help for achievement. This is where I will focus on pin to pap distance -- ""Use 3" to 4" Pin to PAP for more hook, side to side and 4" to 5" for more forward roll"". Thank you.
44boyd
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Posts: 658
Joined: January 25th, 2017, 3:10 am
Preferred Company: Radical, Brunswick
Location: Valrico Florida

Re: Sum of Angles

Post by 44boyd »

It’s about hitting power at the pins, getting the ball into a roll is needed for improved carry. Being speed dominate with high rotation is going to naturally give you more length, so even 3k pad on a spinner is going to keep the pocket in front of you because the end grit is probably higher than what the pad says. It’s one thing to see a pretty hook but another to understand what matches to your game that’ll give you the best chance for higher scores once you’re off a THS in your tournaments
Stacy
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EricHartwell
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Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Sum of Angles

Post by EricHartwell »

FredSoDak wrote: April 6th, 2022, 5:23 pm Thank you both for the quick responses.

Approach speed -- yes, I do sometimes need to slow down my footwork.

Surface prep for our wood lanes is 800/800/3000 on ball spinner, using 6 sided method. First 2 800's @ 20 secs; next 2 800's @ 15 secs; last 2 3000's @ 10 secs. No polish. Resurface balls at beginning of league in September & at mid season break over Christmas/New Year holiday. Will scuff balls by hand with 3000 pad when "grunge" cannot be removed by simple cleaning methods. I did try an experiment once, by using the 800 for all 6 sides; it killed back end shape & entry angle. I have used a 2000 grit for last 2 sides on synthetic lanes and did not see a noticable difference from the 3000; on wood surface, the 2000 was very smoothed out shape.

It is becoming more clear to me now, I hope. If I understand correctly -- the longer pin to pap does indeed get the ball to the roll phase earlier; however, it is at the detriment of the hook phase, which is reduced/shortened; and actually results in less boards covered.

I have been incorrectly interpreting the graphs on the analysis of pin-to-pap distances (example 919C @ 50° x X" x 30°).
Pin to PAP ...... Total Flare
2 1/4 ........ 3.8"
3 3/8 ........ 5.1"
4 1/2 ........ 6.1"
5 5/8 ........ 6.5"

And I will get more length with less backend, in contrast to the ball motion study. Would it be correct, that to achieve the same results of the ball motion study, that I would need to raise my Val drill angle (over the 30° of the study & 35° of my benchmark), in order to lengthen the hook phase? Or will I simply not be able to achieve results similar to the ball motion study, because of my release specs?

Getting older & not so limber sucks -- having to readjust my game to be competitive -- I used to be able to change approach & release more readily -- now I need more layout help for achievement. This is where I will focus on pin to pap distance -- ""Use 3" to 4" Pin to PAP for more hook, side to side and 4" to 5" for more forward roll"". Thank you.
Don't get too focused on trying to find that "magic" layout. You still need the consistency you had in your younger years.

A good arsenal has balls that do not roll like each other. A variety of layouts and surface preps so there is a natural progression from ball to ball in your set.

Total flare is not the tell all. You also have to look at the flare pattern.
Low ratio layouts flare more at the beginning, in the oil, less on the backend, Dry flare.
High Ratio layouts flare less in the oil and more on the backend, Dry flare.
People don't realize this because you can't really see the dry flare lines.

My basic Arsenal Lists are comprised of a somewhat narrow range. Speaking specifically referencing the Ratios. +/- .5
To get a further separation in the reaction you can increase that Ratio Range. My lists are just a starting point.
From what I can tell you are trying the Higher Ratio layouts on the Strong side.
Try looking at the lower ratio Control and Midlane type layouts.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
FredSoDak
Member
Member
Posts: 23
Joined: December 9th, 2021, 5:08 pm
THS Average: 185
Sport Average: 180
Positive Axis Point: 4.5" x 1.5" up
Speed: 16.5 pindeck
Rev Rate: 225
Axis Tilt: 9
Axis Rotation: 50
Heavy Oil Ball: DV8 Intimidator Pearl
Medium Oil Ball: DV8 Creed

Re: Sum of Angles

Post by FredSoDak »

EricHartwell wrote: April 8th, 2022, 9:51 pm
Total flare is not the tell all. You also have to look at the flare pattern.
Low ratio layouts flare more at the beginning, in the oil, less on the backend, Dry flare.
High Ratio layouts flare less in the oil and more on the backend, Dry flare.
People don't realize this because you can't really see the dry flare lines.

From what I can tell you are trying the Higher Ratio layouts on the Strong side.
Try looking at the lower ratio Control and Midlane type layouts.
I am beginning to understand a little more -- on the fact that our wood lanes, with high friction backends; that lower ratios do work better. I was under the previous impression that a large drill angle was required to project the ball downlane; while all it was doing was conserving way too much energy for the backend on high friction wood lanes. I do not need the extra hook help on the backend here -- the lanes provide it all by themselves. So by using the 3"-4" pin to pap for side to side hook; then taming that backend hook down with a slightly higher val angle & lower ratio; it achieves the success I am looking for on our house shot wood lanes. Our everyday pattern has (from 10 board to 10 board) fairly heavy oil for the first 22', moderate oil to 32' then buff to 42'. Outside the 7 board is dry; 7-10 board moderate oil 10' & buff to 30'. Your suggestions of what a shorter pin to pap achieves for me; along with lower ratios are very welcome & have explained my positive results with that combo. It explains the "wow" factor, and inconsistency of my former Swerve FX 70° x 3 x 40°.

My Saber Pearl 60° x 3 x 50° @ 3000 was my most recent favorite for this lane condition -- it has seen its best days. Before that, I used a Track 505C2 (Kinetic) 55° x 3 x 45° @ 3000 and it provided me with the largest quantity of high (650+) series than any ball used on the wood lanes. Pro Shop has a Game Breaker Asym on sale -- made the purchase. Laid out at 50° x 3 1/4 x 45°, a benchmark/control layout for angles; but not drilled yet. Will definitely take the polish off (I despise polish -- it makes me flippy & uncontrollable). I have never thrown a Game Breaker before, but have rolled a friends Ebonite Lane Breaker (pin slightly up & to the right of ring finger, unknown layout, 4000 sanded surface) on this condition and did like the ball. He uses a Radical Reax mostly, but switches to the Lane Breaker when the backends get too wild for him.

Much thanks for having patience with me & taking the time to explain with recommendations.
Our team did win both halves of league this year; and our end of year draw partners (3 to a team) 3-game party tourney, placed 2nd.
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