Just for fun: No-thumb layout (fingers in the MB), pin about 8 inches out.

Which layout is right for me?

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JessN16
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Just for fun: No-thumb layout (fingers in the MB), pin about 8 inches out.

Post by JessN16 »

If I haven't already broken your brain with such a crazy premise, let me set this up as a thought experiment only. I'm not saying I'm about to do this but I do wonder what it would do if I were to follow through with it:

Ball: 900 Global Money Badger
Pin: 5 inch pin-to-MB distance (CG in line)
Bowler: No-thumb two-hander. PAP is 5 over 2 down. Tilt is only about 7-10 degrees. Revs around 350-400, ball speed of 17 mph off the hand

So I was reading some of Mo's older material back when we could have weight holes, and followed that up with a video back when they were allowed, and was paying attention to what he had to say about MB placement relative to the thumb hole on balls, and what kind of reaction you would get from drilling out the MB with the placement of the thumb hole.

Since there is no thumb hole in a modern thumbless bowler's ball, the only way to drill out the MB is to put the fingers there. So hypothetically, using the ball and the bowler described above, this drilling has the potential to locate the pin as much as 8 inches away from the PAP, high above the middle finger/bridge. That would result in about a 2.5-inch pin buffer to the VAL when it's all said and done.

The question is, what kind of ball shape are you going to get here, and better yet, what would the effect be of drilling a ball with such a very long pin? Especially for a bowler with such a small amount of tilt?

It's almost worth trying and then giving you guys a report, but I'm interested to hear your ideas first of what would be expected, especially in regards to ball motion and the ultimate location of the track lines.

Jess
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Re: Just for fun: No-thumb layout (fingers in the MB), pin about 8 inches out.

Post by MegaMav »

Interesting project.
I think you will reverse flare and the ball will roll forward.
You're about 1.25" beyond 6.75" Pin to PAP, which would put you at 5.5" from NAP, a forward rolling pin position.
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Re: Just for fun: No-thumb layout (fingers in the MB), pin about 8 inches out.

Post by EricHartwell »

With a Pin to PAP of 8" it will probably flare over the finger holes on the back end maybe even sooner.
I don't think its worth while to try.

What is your Rotation?

Is your PAP measured from the middle of the Bridge?

How would you like it to roll?
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Re: Just for fun: No-thumb layout (fingers in the MB), pin about 8 inches out.

Post by JessN16 »

EricHartwell wrote: August 2nd, 2021, 5:06 pm With a Pin to PAP of 8" it will probably flare over the finger holes on the back end maybe even sooner.
I don't think its worth while to try.

What is your Rotation?

Is your PAP measured from the middle of the Bridge?

How would you like it to roll?
When I was a one-hander, about the only real talent I had was that I could get a lot of axis rotation on the ball without spinning it. I was a big fan of how Weber released the ball and I could really get around it (75 degrees or more) when I wanted to.

As a two-hander, not so much. I'm probably average axis rotation right now and I've also lost a bunch of tilt.

What interests me in this experiment is really two-fold: One, like most two-handers who have converted from one hand, the easiest (and cheapest) thing to do when starting out is just to plug a few of your regular bowling balls' thumbholes and go. The problem is, when I throw one-handed (and I still can, on a limited basis) my PAP is 4 over 3/8 up. When I switch to two-handed, it goes 5 over, 2 down. What that meant is a lot of my old stuff I was repurposing originally had pin-to-PAP distances of around 3-4 inches and were in fairly usual places (above and just to the right of the ring, etc.); now they have some very small VAL angles. Well, now those balls will clip the middle finger hole in most cases.

The other thing that got me asking the question was that a few weeks back I bought a Storm Axiom Pearl from someone and it had a very strange drill pattern on it. It came drilled for a two-hander already, no thumb hole. The CG was above the bridge. The pin is about 4 inches above that. This creates a very similar ball layout to the one I'm asking about in this thread, albeit in a symmetrical versus an asymmetrical ball. I threw the Axiom Pearl this week for the first time, and noticed I had a little more space to the left of the middle finger. The bowtie had moved (either up or down, I don't know, but it moved the wide part of the flare pattern when it did, so now instead of the first two rings clipping the middle finger hole, they're about 1-1.5 inches away).

That led me back here, because I'm curious as to how an asym would roll with the pin and MB that high. Would it make the shape more angular or would it make it smoother? Would it delay the transition or make it earlier?

Also, my PAP on my one-handed equipment is measured from grip center. On my two-handed equipment, it is measured from between the finger holes. I also have a third finger hole drilled in all my balls, for my pinky, which in my mind may cause the actual "grip center" on the no-thumb equipment to be in the ring finger itself since that hole is now the center of a three-hole layout.

Jess
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Re: Just for fun: No-thumb layout (fingers in the MB), pin about 8 inches out.

Post by EricHartwell »

Interesting, thinking about the Axiom.
Your tilt changed (higher tilt) if the track moved away from the middle finger hole.
Different finger pitches/laterals can do this.

Are the finger holes drilled for grips?

If you flip it over (Cg in the palm of your hand) does the layout look like a full roller layout?

What is the Pin to PAP measurement? Both ways, up and down.
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Re: Just for fun: No-thumb layout (fingers in the MB), pin about 8 inches out.

Post by JessN16 »

EricHartwell wrote: August 4th, 2021, 9:30 pm Interesting, thinking about the Axiom.
Your tilt changed (higher tilt) if the track moved away from the middle finger hole.
Different finger pitches/laterals can do this.

Are the finger holes drilled for grips?

If you flip it over (Cg in the palm of your hand) does the layout look like a full roller layout?

What is the Pin to PAP measurement? Both ways, up and down.
I'm going to see if I can get a picture of this ball here for you to see. The holes are drilled for grips, and yes, it does resemble a full roller/Girard layout when flipped. The ball has a "+" mark on it as required to indicate grip center. The pin-to-PAP measurement is about 7 inches.

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Re: Just for fun: No-thumb layout (fingers in the MB), pin about 8 inches out.

Post by EricHartwell »

7" Pin to PAP is minimal flare and depending on your repeatability of your PAP, could flare either way being that close to the 6 3/4" pin distance turning point at zero flare.

Was the "+" scribed on it for you or the last owner?

Are the middle and ring finger pitches yours or are you making due with what was already there?

An Asymmetrical ball drilled this way is a High flare layout. It will hit the finger holes.
The Drilling Angle will be smaller as well as the VAL angle. It will measure out to about 55-8-5 to get the mass bias near the ring finger.
The 8" Pin to PAP will make the shape of the ball motion like a 5 1/2" pin to PAP. Very forward rolling promoting the ball to roll earlier.
The very low Total angles also promote an early roll like what would be used for a speed dominant bowler.
The very small VAL angle makes for a very short hook zone.

I wouldn't waste any time or money trying this on an Asymmetrical ball.
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Re: Just for fun: No-thumb layout (fingers in the MB), pin about 8 inches out.

Post by JessN16 »

EricHartwell wrote: August 7th, 2021, 4:09 pm 7" Pin to PAP is minimal flare and depending on your repeatability of your PAP, could flare either way being that close to the 6 3/4" pin distance turning point at zero flare.

Was the "+" scribed on it for you or the last owner?

Are the middle and ring finger pitches yours or are you making due with what was already there?

An Asymmetrical ball drilled this way is a High flare layout. It will hit the finger holes.
The Drilling Angle will be smaller as well as the VAL angle. It will measure out to about 55-8-5 to get the mass bias near the ring finger.
The 8" Pin to PAP will make the shape of the ball motion like a 5 1/2" pin to PAP. Very forward rolling promoting the ball to roll earlier.
The very low Total angles also promote an early roll like what would be used for a speed dominant bowler.
The very small VAL angle makes for a very short hook zone.

I wouldn't waste any time or money trying this on an Asymmetrical ball.
Thanks. The last thing I need to do is magnify my rev dominance. I have a Track Kinetic Platinum arriving any day now and I was going to attempt this drill pattern on but it doesn't seem like it would offer me much.

I have experimented a lot with oddball drillings over the years and have found things that worked for me that were either not done for many years, or were discouraged. Probably the weirdest patterns I ever did (using a 4 over 3/8 up PAP) were on an AMF Nkryption Code that was "pro CG," where I ended up with the pin below the thumb, CG in grip center and MB almost on the VAL about 3 inches down from my PAP, or the 900 Global Break S75 where I had the pin in a normal spot (2 inches straight up over the ring), CG in grip center (another "pro CG" ball) and the MB about 2 inches in from the the NAP, between it and the middle finger. One of the other drillings I was considering for this Kinetic was to have the pin almost on the VAL on the grip midline (meaning finger hole level) and the MB to the left of the track, headed toward the NAP.

To answer the questions you asked about the Axiom:

* "+" sign was inscribed by the previous owner.

* Middle/ring pitches are very comfortable for me on this ball. I have gone to a lot of reverse (7/8") in my fingers since going two-handed; multiple drilling pros have confirmed I needed reverse via inspection of my range of finger flexibility. While I can throw balls with a lot of forward finger pitch without discomfort, I do seem to perform better with a lot of reverse pitch. This ball has some degree of reverse in the fingers but I haven't measured it out.
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Re: Just for fun: No-thumb layout (fingers in the MB), pin about 8 inches out.

Post by EricHartwell »

Today's new rules for static weight allow unconventional drill patterns.

Mapping the axis migration on unconventional drillings will help explain what these drillings are doing.

https://radicalbowling.com/tech-docs/th ... ling-balls
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Re: Just for fun: No-thumb layout (fingers in the MB), pin about 8 inches out.

Post by JessN16 »

EricHartwell wrote: August 9th, 2021, 10:32 pm Today's new rules for static weight allow unconventional drill patterns.

Mapping the axis migration on unconventional drillings will help explain what these drillings are doing.

https://radicalbowling.com/tech-docs/th ... ling-balls
I saw a video a few weeks back (from J.R. Raymond?) that used a computer program to generate what amounted to CAD estimates of how certain balls would flare given their cores, stats and the bowler's stats. It looked like it was written especially for pro shops so I can only imagine what the price point was (certainly more than what a simple hobbyist driller like me needs), but wow, was it informative.

I've had a lot of problems with flaring over the finger holes since going no-thumb. I drilled a NIB Nkryption Code a month ago that is basically 60x6x60, and the bowtie is right above the fingers. Flare lines all over the finger holes, it's a mess.

In general, whether I've been a one-hander or a two-hander, when I've tried to drill balls for maximum length, I end up getting something other than what I was after. Used to be, maximum length was just something fun to have in the bag -- i.e., everyone wants that "go long/skid-snap" ball. But now it's necessary due to my lower speed and higher rev rate, otherwise I'll never get a piece of modern equipment to the breakpoint. However, I have a lot of the same issues I have before: Balls drilled to go longer and then make a bigger move tend to simply ... go longer. They don't have a lot of recovery. Or, they don't go as long as I want them to before starting up in the first place, but that may be a function of the lane oil and topography I'm currently shooting on.
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Re: Just for fun: No-thumb layout (fingers in the MB), pin about 8 inches out.

Post by EricHartwell »

Try a low flare layout 90-2-40 on an Asymmetrical ball.
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Re: Just for fun: No-thumb layout (fingers in the MB), pin about 8 inches out.

Post by JessN16 »

EricHartwell wrote: August 15th, 2021, 12:44 pm Try a low flare layout 90-2-40 on an Asymmetrical ball.
I was kicking around doing that with this Kinetic I just got. I think I'll go for it.
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Re: Just for fun: No-thumb layout (fingers in the MB), pin about 8 inches out.

Post by TonyPR »

EricHartwell wrote: August 15th, 2021, 12:44 pm Try a low flare layout 90-2-40 on an Asymmetrical ball.
Hello Eric! I’m back!

Yeah, I second that but would probably do a 55 VAL as I am biased to smoother reactions but your recommendations are always spot on. Glad you guys are still doing your thing.
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Re: Just for fun: No-thumb layout (fingers in the MB), pin about 8 inches out.

Post by EricHartwell »

TonyPR wrote: August 20th, 2021, 1:19 am Hello Eric! I’m back!

Yeah, I second that but would probably do a 55 VAL as I am biased to smoother reactions but your recommendations are always spot on. Glad you guys are still doing your thing.
Nice to see you Tony

You bring up an interesting variation for the low flare layout, Call it Control low flare.
Where as My recommendation was based on the Long and Strong Ratio
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Re: Just for fun: No-thumb layout (fingers in the MB), pin about 8 inches out.

Post by JessN16 »

So, quick update: I put this on a Track Kinetic Platinum I had in the shop, and threw it tonight. I got a really nice look from it, very strong and continuous and not twitchy by any means. But the overall volume and/or shape of the pattern (along with my aforementioned speed/rev rate issues) isn't going to let me throw it in this house for more than a game or two.

I ended up switching to a 900 Global Infused Badger for the last game, a ball that is drilled with its pin almost in the exact location as the Kinetic, but the Infused is a symmetrical ball. It looks like I can go 1-2 with this pair of balls and have a decent look.
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Re: Just for fun: No-thumb layout (fingers in the MB), pin about 8 inches out.

Post by EricHartwell »

Did you go with my 40* VAL or 55* that Tony recommended?
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Re: Just for fun: No-thumb layout (fingers in the MB), pin about 8 inches out.

Post by JessN16 »

EricHartwell wrote: August 25th, 2021, 7:51 pm Did you go with my 40* VAL or 55* that Tony recommended?
I went with the 40. I hadn't seen the other post before I drilled the ball.

I'm not disappointed with it, as it's a look I didn't really have with some of my other stuff, but I'm thinking what I might need to do is try it on another medium-ish asym and take some of the polish off the cover. The Kinetic's pearl coverstock may be the reason for the too-much added pop at the friction point.
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Re: Just for fun: No-thumb layout (fingers in the MB), pin about 8 inches out.

Post by EricHartwell »

The smaller VAL angle is a factor along with the shiny coverstock for the added pop.

The larger VAL will smooth out the transition at the breakpoint and push the Roll phase further down the lane.

2" Pin to PAP still has a decent amount of flare on a higher differential ball.
Another option within the low flare category is to go with an even shorter Pin to PAP.
1" Pin to PAP will make the flare lines overlap and will create some carrydown reducing the overall hook and enabling a straighter line of play.
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Re: Just for fun: No-thumb layout (fingers in the MB), pin about 8 inches out.

Post by TonyPR »

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Re: Just for fun: No-thumb layout (fingers in the MB), pin about 8 inches out.

Post by JessN16 »

Very interesting link. What is the color legend (yellow, blue, red) for the markings in those examples? I'm guessing yellow is the pin and red is the MB; is blue the CG or something else?
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