Mo's new layouts

Which layout is right for me?

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
gbabione
Member
Member
Posts: 211
Joined: April 6th, 2010, 2:56 am
THS Average: 211
Positive Axis Point: 5 x 1/4 up
Speed: 18
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 11
Axis Rotation: 65
Heavy Oil Ball: Proton Physix
Medium Oil Ball: Phase 2
Light Oil Ball: IQ Emerald
Preferred Company: Storm

Mo's new layouts

Post by gbabione »

With MO saying there are only 9 layouts, does that mean everything we have learned here is to be forgotten? The only thing taken into account is the PAP. Speed and revs don't matter any more? Don't have ro worry about computing ratios and sums. It definitely makes it easier, but it seems like it makes all the naysayers to the dual-angle system to be right. What would each of these layouts be considered when building an arsenal, i.e. long and strong, control, midlane?
Guy Babione

Right Handed
PAP 5" by 1/4" up
65* rotation
11* tilt
375 rev rate
18 mph off hand
User avatar
MegaMav
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4694
Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
THS Average: 225
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 14
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
Location: Malta, NY

Re: Mo's new layouts

Post by MegaMav »

I continue to prescribe to our philosophy here.
As Mo has gone mainstream, I think there has been a desire to make it "1-sheet" simple.
I think what we have documented here in the wiki is more complete.
User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Mo's new layouts

Post by EricHartwell »

I might not make many proshop friends with my response here.
Please don't take this the wrong way because if you are here you are striving for better, not just good enough.

He is Dumbing down the information for them because alot of the drillers just don't get it.

He isn't preaching anything new, just trying to make it simpler for them to churn out drillings that are good enough.
I am not and will not ever be a person that settles for good enough.

I firmly believe that Brunswick is behind this. I also believe that is why he is no longer here, because big B said no.

I have not followed Mo to facebook and I will not get an account to follow the simpler approach. I would rather use the Storm method swinging arcs and using pin buffers. Which was the precursor to the Dual Angle method. It is better than using canned layouts meant for one size fits most approach.

His seminars are for the guys mass producing drillings so they don't, for one reason, have warrantee issues that cost the manufacturers money.

He speaks of 9 layouts in his seminars but when you look at the drillsheets for his equipment there are only 5 plus 1 more for the full rollers.
Trying to make it even simpler because the average consumer is even less educated than the drillers.

As far as what each of the 9 layouts be called when building an arsenal ask Mo on facebook.

I don't actually disagree about only needing 9 layouts. When you take my basic layout list and add Sport layouts to it there are 9 layouts. But, each set of layouts are tuned differently for each individual bowler. Not one set of layouts fits all approach.

I use this list here at BowlingChat...

Totally Strong
Midlane
Benchmark
Long and Strong
Control
low flare
Short Oil Sport
Med length Sport
Long Oil Sport

I am not going to simplify my approach and I will continue to use the same adjectives I have been using that are defined and explained in the Wiki.

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... on#Layouts
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
duvallite
Member
Member
Posts: 97
Joined: September 12th, 2011, 7:55 pm

Re: Mo's new layouts

Post by duvallite »

Totally agree with both of you, and respect your opinions. To me, a "one size fits most" method is counter-productive for a bowler looking to maximize their potential with their equipment, and goes right along with "everyone gets a trophy".
gbabione
Member
Member
Posts: 211
Joined: April 6th, 2010, 2:56 am
THS Average: 211
Positive Axis Point: 5 x 1/4 up
Speed: 18
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 11
Axis Rotation: 65
Heavy Oil Ball: Proton Physix
Medium Oil Ball: Phase 2
Light Oil Ball: IQ Emerald
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Mo's new layouts

Post by gbabione »

I appreciate the answers. I didn't realize the situation. I will continue using what I have learned. What I have not found is any update on how to use this system with the new USBC rules. Has there been any updates on the Wiki that I haven't found?
Guy Babione

Right Handed
PAP 5" by 1/4" up
65* rotation
11* tilt
375 rev rate
18 mph off hand
User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Mo's new layouts

Post by EricHartwell »

Obviously you can't use balance holes with the new rules. So you can't take a $140 ball add a balance hole to make it roll like a $250 ball.
The versatility of Symmetrical balls is now severely limited and you need to get the layouts correct with Asymmetrical balls because you can't tune them in with the balance hole.
Other than that the Dual Angle System can be used just as it was always intended.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
gbabione
Member
Member
Posts: 211
Joined: April 6th, 2010, 2:56 am
THS Average: 211
Positive Axis Point: 5 x 1/4 up
Speed: 18
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 11
Axis Rotation: 65
Heavy Oil Ball: Proton Physix
Medium Oil Ball: Phase 2
Light Oil Ball: IQ Emerald
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Mo's new layouts

Post by gbabione »

So no adjustments to the layouts to make up for the loss of using a weight hole? I watched a video somewhere where they showed a ball with a weight hole, then with the hole plugged, and then the new layout specs to give nearly the same numbers and reaction.
Guy Babione

Right Handed
PAP 5" by 1/4" up
65* rotation
11* tilt
375 rev rate
18 mph off hand
User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Mo's new layouts

Post by EricHartwell »

If you come across that video again please post a link.

If you were using layouts that require balance holes with Symmetrical balls, buy an Asymmetrical.
If you are using Asyms with balance holes either buy a stronger Asym or get the layout right the first time so you don't need to tune it with a balance hole.

The Sport layouts were where the balance holes were kind of required to achieve the more extreme reaction. You just don't get to make a post drilled ball that strong anymore. It was about creating more Asymmetry by changing the core shape with the extra hole. I don't see where a different layout could do that.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
gbabione
Member
Member
Posts: 211
Joined: April 6th, 2010, 2:56 am
THS Average: 211
Positive Axis Point: 5 x 1/4 up
Speed: 18
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 11
Axis Rotation: 65
Heavy Oil Ball: Proton Physix
Medium Oil Ball: Phase 2
Light Oil Ball: IQ Emerald
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Mo's new layouts

Post by gbabione »

I've been going through my history and can't find that video. I remember there were 3 numbers, whether they were RG or diffs I don't remember. By plugging the weight hole, the numbers decreased. A stronger layout was used that brought the numbers back up to the same if not slightly higher. How the layout was determined to get the same numbers, I don't remember.
Guy Babione

Right Handed
PAP 5" by 1/4" up
65* rotation
11* tilt
375 rev rate
18 mph off hand
User avatar
deanchamp
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 455
Joined: August 4th, 2010, 10:23 am
THS Average: 220
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Mo's new layouts

Post by deanchamp »

Hi Eric,

Without balance holes, how would you lay out your sport pattern balls?

Short Oil Sport, Med length Sport, Long Oil Sport.

Let's say a case study of 400rpm, 18mph, 15* tilt and 50* rotation.

Thanks,
Dean
USBC Silver Level Coach
BCU Graduate - Mastery of Layouts
BTM contributor
User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Mo's new layouts

Post by EricHartwell »

deanchamp wrote: March 4th, 2021, 10:38 am Hi Eric,

Without balance holes, how would you lay out your sport pattern balls?

Short Oil Sport, Med length Sport, Long Oil Sport.

Let's say a case study of 400rpm, 18mph, 15* tilt and 50* rotation.

Thanks,
Dean
Wish I could roll with 18mph and 400 revs

Short ................... 35-4.5-65
Med ..................... 30-5-55
Long .................... 25-5.5-45

This would be my starting point. Subject to change based on PAP and span measurements.
Lower ratio layouts usually have the pin location flirting with the finger holes.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
User avatar
deanchamp
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 455
Joined: August 4th, 2010, 10:23 am
THS Average: 220
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Mo's new layouts

Post by deanchamp »

Thanks Eric, I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience and keeping us ahead of the curve. I'm assuming these are asymm balls.

Also, are you using 95 degrees as your benchmark sum for these? I've started to use 105 in Australia for right-handers as the majority of lanes here are getting worn with friction in the track.

Dean
USBC Silver Level Coach
BCU Graduate - Mastery of Layouts
BTM contributor
User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Mo's new layouts

Post by EricHartwell »

Yes these are for Asymmetrical balls.

I calculated 100 for the benchmark in this example and used slightly higher totals for the sport layouts for being slightly rev dominant.

I am still using 95 for matched bowlers but put emphasis on the control, Long and strong and low flare layouts for the THS conditions. Which pushes the totals on those layouts to 115.
For those with larger arsenals utilizing higher totals with Benchmark Ratios is a good way to fill in gaps.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
User avatar
MegaMav
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4694
Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
THS Average: 225
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 14
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
Location: Malta, NY

Re: Mo's new layouts

Post by MegaMav »

Personally, I bump up the total sums based on how much differential ratio there is built into the ball design.
Results cores, im at 120.
User avatar
MathIsTruth
Industry Professional
Industry Professional
Posts: 548
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 5:18 pm
Preferred Company: MoRich/Radical
Location: Washington, WV

Re: Mo's new layouts

Post by MathIsTruth »

Mo’s intention for the new layouts was to make it easier for people who may not have the knowledge base or understanding as many of the people on this forum. He always had the goal of making bowling more fun for more people. A common part of my work for Mo was to virtually drill bowling balls to determine the drilled mass properties, the only important mass properties, and we included that information with all bowling balls. These layouts were fine tuned as we continued our design work to better help all bowlers succeed and continue growing the sport. There is only so much time in a day to offer layout advice for the many people that asked so we did try to simplify it. If you understand the Dual Angle Layout then apply that knowledge. This forum has so many people who can offer great advice and I know that was his hope when he spent so much time here several years ago.
User avatar
MegaMav
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4694
Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
THS Average: 225
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 14
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
Location: Malta, NY

Re: Mo's new layouts

Post by MegaMav »

MathIsTruth wrote: March 14th, 2021, 4:04 am Mo’s intention for the new layouts was to make it easier for people who may not have the knowledge base or understanding as many of the people on this forum. He always had the goal of making bowling more fun for more people. A common part of my work for Mo was to virtually drill bowling balls to determine the drilled mass properties, the only important mass properties, and we included that information with all bowling balls. These layouts were fine tuned as we continued our design work to better help all bowlers succeed and continue growing the sport. There is only so much time in a day to offer layout advice for the many people that asked so we did try to simplify it. If you understand the Dual Angle Layout then apply that knowledge. This forum has so many people who can offer great advice and I know that was his hope when he spent so much time here several years ago.
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

Hi Steve!
Great to see you post, I hope to see you stay with us.
Your advice carries the weight of authority when it comes to core design.
Much appreciate the kind words about our community, we've continued on the path Mo wanted, help people enjoy bowling more so they bowl more often.
Post Reply