Layout / arsenal advice

Which layout is right for me?

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tschinnerer
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Layout / arsenal advice

Post by tschinnerer »

I believe I know enough about layouts to make myself dangerous but I'd like to think thru the next 2 balls im about to drill with someone more knowledgeable. Pap 5.25 over, .75 up, 18mpg, high track, 7-10' tilt, 40' rotation, 325 revs, I would consider speed dominant. Average 205 in 2 houses and 180 at another house where I consistently struggle out of the gate and late 3rd game or pot bowling after league when I would like to move deeper and have a ball that can make the turn. Is there a layout that works best for these 2 scenarios?

Currently have:

Trident Nemesis 50x4x20 (very clean but doesn't match up well unless the lane has alot of outside friction)
Axiom - 55x4x40 early and strong
Phaze 2 - 55x4x40 benchmark
Hustle PBR - 55x4x40 big step down from phase 2 but similar motion
IQ tour emerald pearl 65x4.75x35 (doesn't skid/flip and no continuation like i hoped)

Balls in the bullpen, Jackal Ghost, paradox red, Code Black, Venom Shock, or could plug IQ emerald if there is a better layout for my specs. Thanks for any criticism or advice!
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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout / arsenal advice

Post by EricHartwell »

tschinnerer wrote: November 25th, 2020, 3:30 am Trident Nemesis 50x4x20 (very clean but doesn't match up well unless the lane has alot of outside friction)
An Angular ball with a Strong Angular layout on it. Doesn't surprise me that this ball is inconsistent for you.
I would put a dull surface on it and keep it for the long oil conditions.

Axiom - 55x4x40 early and strong
Benchmark Layout with a Strong coverstock.
Phaze 2 - 55x4x40 benchmark
Adjust the surface so there isnt such a big step down to the Hustle.
Hustle PBR - 55x4x40 big step down from phase 2 but similar motion
IQ tour emerald pearl 65x4.75x35 (doesn't skid/flip and no continuation like i hoped)
Redrill the IQ pearl xx-3.5-30. Your original layout is basically a low flare layout. It is has a longer/slower hook zone.


Balls in the bullpen, Jackal Ghost, paradox red, Code Black, Venom Shock, or could plug IQ emerald if there is a better layout for my specs. Thanks for any criticism or advice!
Comments in color above

Code Black: I would put a low flare layout on it. 80-2-30
To be used on broken down conditions when stronger layouts over react.

Jackal Ghost: 75-5-35 4000+ grit shiny for the deeper line

Paradox Red: 70-2 3/4-55 Control Layout

Venom Shock: xx-4.5-50 Pin in the ring finger Control layout. A step below the Paradox Red
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
tschinnerer
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Re: Layout / arsenal advice

Post by tschinnerer »

Thanks Eric! I found the resources to calculate drilling and VAL angles for each layout, but having a hard time determining the best option for pin distance. Are their resources to determine that based on my numbers or is that more ball specific? (Ball = cover, core, surface, etc)
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EricHartwell
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Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout / arsenal advice

Post by EricHartwell »

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... etSpot.pdf

Cut and pasted from the Sweet Spot Guide in the Wiki page 2

"Retaining Axis Rotation & Axis Tilt
To retain Axis Rotation and Axis Tilt in SYMMETRICAL equipment, we would tend towards longer pinpap (> 4") distances, while ASYMMETRICAL equipment we use shorter pin-pap distances (< 3"). We
would also chose higher angle ratios (2:1 - 3:1) to promote a longer first transition to make the most
of what Axis Rotation and Axis Tilt is available at release.
To burn off Axis Rotation and Axis Tilt quicker in SYMMETRICAL equipment, we would tend toward
Max flare pin positions (3" - 4"), while longer pin distances (4"+) in ASYMMETRICAL equipment. We
would also chose lower angle rations (1:1 - 1:2) to get the ball to reach the first transition sooner,
while trying to eliminate jumpy back end reaction that tends to accompany high Axis Rotation and
Axis Tilt. "

This gives a basic idea and where to start with Pin to PAP distance. Personal experience for me plays a big part in choosing the distances as well.
You will gain some experience as you try layouts that are more tuned to your release.

Ball choice also plays a factor. For example a low differential low flare Symmetrical ball drilled with a 5" pin to PAP will have very little flare and basically take the core out of the equation and the ball motion will be about the coverstrength and surface prep.
Another example of not necessarily considering the ball/layout is your Trident Nemesis as I have already mentioned in my last post. The layout is good for your specs but the choice of ball maybe not so much. The dull surface on it and longer heavier oil for its use will make it more usable as a condition specific ball in your arsenal. A better layout 40-4.5-30 what I call a Midlane layout. Lower ratio stronger Pin to PAP than the Totally Strong layout you put on it. The Midlane layout leans towards the Sport layouts in its reaction promoting earlier forward roll.

You are a lower tilt bowler thus the recommendations for shorter pin to PAP on Asymmetrical balls. Retaining what little tilt you have will do a few things.
It pushes the transition further down the lane.
It will increase your carry percentage by achieving roll before tilt and rotation both = zero.
It also enables the ball to have continuation through the pocket. Less deflection.

Here is another reference from the Wiki...
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... echart.JPG

If you have specific questions regarding Pin to PAP distances I would be glad to help answer them.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
tschinnerer
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Re: Layout / arsenal advice

Post by tschinnerer »

I've tried several things in the past to increase my tilt, lower my speed, increase revs, etc... without much success. Tonight it all came together for 13 straight between game 2 and 3 with the Trident. (Stood at 35, rolled over 18 out to about 5 at 40' and it came screaming back)
1) Would you recommend I continue this strategy and recalculate my stats? I'm guessing this opens up more ball options/layouts or maybe more options to play the lanes also.
2) how do people choose which hand position/approach/stats to base your ball and layout choice from? Ex: approach A is more up the back of the ball, low tilt, high track, high speed, medium revs. Approach B, strong hand/inside the ball/come around the ball at release, slower speed, more revs, much more side roll/down lane action...

I'm haven't drilled anything since beginning this thread but debating if some coaching and practice with the new hand position and stats will make a big difference for the better...
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Re: Layout / arsenal advice

Post by boomer »

flexibility is always good. Being able to come up the back AND come strong through the ball , both , are good to be able to do.

Then let the lanes tell you what they want you to do.
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EricHartwell
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Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout / arsenal advice

Post by EricHartwell »

I would recommend a 1:1 ratio Asymmetrical drilling as a middle of the spectrum if you are going to manipulate your release and have all the pitches in the bullpen. This is assuming you have the ability to manipulate Tilt. Not an easy skill to master.

I was a pitcher in my hardball younger days. I learned to throw everything from the knuckleball through the rising fastball. A total junkballer. My bowling game is no different. I use everything from the back-up ball to swinging it from deep inside. I definitely think it is a fun way to play the game. Don't get me wrong I have a sweetspot when I am bowling my best. That is why you base your arsenal around what you do best. Then you add those specialty balls you get drilled for making the game more fun or more competitive when the lane conditions aren't the best.

Get that bullpen drilled up like I suggested and you will have an excellent variety to choose from without having to be too flexible with your release.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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