Layout Advice needed

Which layout is right for me?

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DanH
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Joined: July 17th, 2017, 12:35 am
THS Average: 208
Sport Average: 181
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8 > 1/8^
Speed: 17.2mph off hand
Rev Rate: 292
Axis Tilt: 21
Axis Rotation: 50
Heavy Oil Ball: Brunswick Prism Hybrid (3k surface)
Medium Oil Ball: phase III
Light Oil Ball: onyx vibe

Layout Advice needed

Post by DanH »

I went to Kegel and got some new Specto data

RR 292
Speed off hand 17 Mph
Tilt 21
Axis Rotation 50

At 69 I was stunned by my Rev Rate. Its actually a bit higher since I had thumb issues that day but when I got out clean it was around 340. I hung up bad the first few shots then Del took me back and opened up my thumb.
I would rather be speed dominant anyway these days but I never was.

I bowl in a house with a 42 ft 25unts THS. 18 year Old Anvil lane.

The best ball I had in recent years was a Motiv Octane Carbon, 4 1/2 x 70. maintained at 3k surface.
I used a Onyx Vibe for a while, no big scores but very consistent. 5 1/4 x 35.
I have a Brunswick Prism Hybrid drilled 90x 1 1/12 x 50 that works sometimes but not consistently. I have tried a lot of surface changes and just like most of my other balls 3k works best.

Please advise this old man on layouts and surface changes that might work better for me.

Thanks!
Nobody knows everything, Always learning.
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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Advice needed

Post by EricHartwell »

I always start with figuring the benchmark and then work from there

Benchmark 1.25:1 Ratio, 100* Totals

Asymmetrical Layouts
Totally Strong ................. 50-4.5-30
Midlane ........................ 35-4.5-45
Benchmark .................... 55-4-45
Long and Strong .............. 75-4-45
Control ........................ 55-3.5-65
low flare ...................... 75-2.5-45

Symmetrical layouts
Benchmark ................... xx-4-40
Control ....................... xx-4.5-60 adjust to pin in the ring finger
low flare ..................... xx-5-35
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
DanH
Member
Member
Posts: 2
Joined: July 17th, 2017, 12:35 am
THS Average: 208
Sport Average: 181
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8 > 1/8^
Speed: 17.2mph off hand
Rev Rate: 292
Axis Tilt: 21
Axis Rotation: 50
Heavy Oil Ball: Brunswick Prism Hybrid (3k surface)
Medium Oil Ball: phase III
Light Oil Ball: onyx vibe

Re: Layout Advice needed

Post by DanH »

Eric I cant thank you enough.

I was close on a few, looks like spot on with the control layout on the symmetrical since I have to go an inch below the ring finger and end up at 70 degree val. its my best layout .
Nobody knows everything, Always learning.
TampaSR
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THS Average: 208
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Positive Axis Point: 4 11/16 >
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Rev Rate: 292
Axis Tilt: 21
Axis Rotation: 50
Heavy Oil Ball: Storm Parallax
Medium Oil Ball: Storm IQ Nano Pearl
Light Oil Ball: Looking
Preferred Company: Storm/Roto

Re: Layout Advice needed

Post by TampaSR »

Just want to thank Eric again. The layout are working well.
19866
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Posts: 8
Joined: January 11th, 2021, 9:20 pm
THS Average: 195
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 up
Speed: 17.5 off hand 14 pin deck
Rev Rate: 285
Axis Tilt: 23
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Conspiracy
Medium Oil Ball: Radical Zing Hybrid
Light Oil Ball: Storm Natural Pearl Urethane
Preferred Company: Brunswick
Location: Idaho

Re: Layout Advice needed

Post by 19866 »

I have a Radical Zing I want to drill with a short pin layout for a wet dry, (left to right), house shot. Mo Pinel gave me my base layout which is 45° x 4 1/2 x 30°. How much should I modify this for a 2" pin. 2" pin to pap.
Last edited by 19866 on March 11th, 2021, 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MegaMav
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Posts: 4694
Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
THS Average: 225
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Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 14
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
Location: Malta, NY

Re: Layout Advice needed

Post by MegaMav »

19866 wrote: January 13th, 2021, 6:46 pm I have a Radical Zing I want to drill with a short pin layout for a wet dry, (left to right), house shot. Mo Pinel gave me my base layout which is 45° x 4 1/2 x 30°. How much should I modify this for a 2" pin.
2" Pin to CG?
LibertyBowler
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THS Average: 190
Sport Average: 175
Positive Axis Point: 5 7/16 X 3/8 up
Speed: 14.5-15
Axis Tilt: 18
Heavy Oil Ball: magnitude 035, Radical ridiculous asym,
Medium Oil Ball: Conspiracy hybrid, cutting edge hybrid
Light Oil Ball: edge solid, edge pearl, fanatic btu pearl
Preferred Company: Radical/ Brunswick
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Layout Advice needed

Post by LibertyBowler »

I am looking for suggested layouts I can give to my ball driller that will work best for my game and get the desired shape I am looking for. I have pretty old equipment that sat undrilled until Winter 2019 and still have a few pieces to drill up. I mostly get my equipment drilled for sport shots and finding it difficult matching up to the transition on the house shot. I get my equipment drilled for sport due to seeking out tournaments/leagues that will most likely use a sport patterns. Unfortunately here in Chicago sport leagues do not exist, which forced me to join a regular league that uses a THS. I also have equipment for dry/short oil however I feel the layouts are not right for those conditions. I currently have a coach who is also my ball driller but he drills a different system and converts it to dual angle for me.

The various centers I bowl in all have synthetic lanes except for one which is wood.

My Current specs are as follows:
PAP: 5 7/16 X 3/8 up, remapped 5/27/19 from 4 1/2 X 3/16 up.
Axis tilt is 18-19 degrees
Speed: 14.5-15 mph (Monitor reading)
Rev Rate: unknown but I was told by my ball driller I am matched.

My current arsenal includes the following: 
Ridiculous Asym- 35 X 4 1/2 X 35 (Double Thumb) Drilled 5/27/17 barely used it till Dec 2019. Also this is the only ball in my arsenal with a balance hole.
This arsenal were NIB drilled 2/28/19:
Magnitude 035- 35 X 4 5/8 X 40
Edge Pearl- 35 X 3/4 X 30
Edge Solid- 45 X 4 1/2 X 70 
BTU Pearl- 45 X 4 X 70*
All were drilled with the intentions to use on short sport and dried up house shots.

This Arsenal was NIB drilled 01/27/20:
Conspiracy Hybrid- 55 X 6 X 35
Cyclops pearl- 75 X 5 1/2 X 40
Brunswick inferno blue flame- 50 X 5 1/4 X 40


My undrilled list includes the following:
Tremendous Pearl
Guru Supreme
Katana Legend
Radical sizzle
Radical Beyond Ridiculous
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EricHartwell
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Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Advice needed

Post by EricHartwell »

Estimated rev rate only gets estimated layouts.
Also needed is the angle of rotation. Will use 45* med rotation for estimates
For the estimate, 1:1 ratio and 100* totals to start your layouts from for house shots.

Estimated Asymmetrical Layouts
Totally Strong .......... 50-5-30
Midlane ................. 30-4.5-50
Benchmark ............ 50-4.25-50
Long and Strong ...... 70-4.25-50
Control ................ 50-4.5-70
low flare .............. 70-2.25-50

Totally Strong and Midlane layouts are, for the most part, too Strong for House shots unless you are speed dominant or bowling on a flood.

My undrilled list includes the following: estimated layout suggestions
Tremendous Pearl ................................. 70-4-50
Guru Supreme ................................... 50-4.5-70
Katana Legend ................................... 70-2.25-50
Radical sizzle .................................... xx-4.75-35
Radical Beyond Ridiculous .................... xx-4.75-55 pin in the ring finger
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
19866
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Posts: 8
Joined: January 11th, 2021, 9:20 pm
THS Average: 195
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 up
Speed: 17.5 off hand 14 pin deck
Rev Rate: 285
Axis Tilt: 23
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Conspiracy
Medium Oil Ball: Radical Zing Hybrid
Light Oil Ball: Storm Natural Pearl Urethane
Preferred Company: Brunswick
Location: Idaho

Re: Layout Advice needed

Post by 19866 »

MegaMav wrote: January 14th, 2021, 5:32 pm 2" Pin to CG?
That's 2" pin to pap on an asymmetrical ball.
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EricHartwell
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Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Advice needed

Post by EricHartwell »

19866 wrote: January 13th, 2021, 6:46 pm I have a Radical Zing I want to drill with a short pin layout for a wet dry, (left to right), house shot. Mo Pinel gave me my base layout which is 45° x 4 1/2 x 30°. How much should I modify this for a 2" pin. 2" pin to pap.
19866 wrote: March 11th, 2021, 8:47 pm

That's 2" pin to pap on an asymmetrical ball.
With 23* of Tilt I would Not recommend a 2" pin to PAP on an Asymmetrical ball.

With the release specs listed in your profile I would recommend a Control Layout 35-5-55 adjust to put the pin in the middle finger.

An option with this kind of layout is to drill the middle finger deeper to reduce the flare.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
19866
Member
Member
Posts: 8
Joined: January 11th, 2021, 9:20 pm
THS Average: 195
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 up
Speed: 17.5 off hand 14 pin deck
Rev Rate: 285
Axis Tilt: 23
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Conspiracy
Medium Oil Ball: Radical Zing Hybrid
Light Oil Ball: Storm Natural Pearl Urethane
Preferred Company: Brunswick
Location: Idaho

Re: Layout Advice needed

Post by 19866 »

Thank you, I'll try it. Your a tremendous asset to this forum.
19866
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Posts: 8
Joined: January 11th, 2021, 9:20 pm
THS Average: 195
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 up
Speed: 17.5 off hand 14 pin deck
Rev Rate: 285
Axis Tilt: 23
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Conspiracy
Medium Oil Ball: Radical Zing Hybrid
Light Oil Ball: Storm Natural Pearl Urethane
Preferred Company: Brunswick
Location: Idaho

Re: Layout Advice needed

Post by 19866 »

I have been less than thrilled with my benchmark layout given to me by Pinel, ( I think it was from Mikey). That and Eric helped me with a layout ( thank you, Eric), but also said he didn't think I would like a 2" pin ball, and I do like it. All this led me to recheck my stats, and yes they were off. New ones on profile. So trying to figure my own layouts, and I have questions. Starting at 100° total sum, minus 5° for the high tilt. Then looking at the wiki chart my ratio for 23° of tilt should be 1:1.25. Right? But under the ratio adjustment instructions, for my high tilt it says I should be using 1:2 to 1:3. I have done pretty well with Radical's suggested layouts on Asym's, haven't drilled a sym lately. I also seems the instructions for finding your sweet spot may be out of date especially for symetrical balls, ( because of the new no extra hole rule, I suppose). I am thinking the same thing for the Paddock app.. My pap now 5 over 1/2 up, and axis rotation 45°. Was over 4 3/4 over 1/2 up, and 60° axis rotation. Pap has changed and I probably just messed up on the rotation.
Anyone feeling like helping me out with advise or giving me layouts? Thanks, Larry 19866
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MegaMav
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THS Average: 225
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Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 14
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
Location: Malta, NY

Re: Layout Advice needed

Post by MegaMav »

Which ball is this for Larry?
19866
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Posts: 8
Joined: January 11th, 2021, 9:20 pm
THS Average: 195
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 up
Speed: 17.5 off hand 14 pin deck
Rev Rate: 285
Axis Tilt: 23
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Conspiracy
Medium Oil Ball: Radical Zing Hybrid
Light Oil Ball: Storm Natural Pearl Urethane
Preferred Company: Brunswick
Location: Idaho

Re: Layout Advice needed

Post by 19866 »

Radical Incognito and also need a more control layout on a Brunswick vapor zone.
19866
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Posts: 8
Joined: January 11th, 2021, 9:20 pm
THS Average: 195
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 up
Speed: 17.5 off hand 14 pin deck
Rev Rate: 285
Axis Tilt: 23
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Conspiracy
Medium Oil Ball: Radical Zing Hybrid
Light Oil Ball: Storm Natural Pearl Urethane
Preferred Company: Brunswick
Location: Idaho

Re: Layout Advice needed

Post by 19866 »

Was also considering buying a Hy Road Pearl for that control layout.
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MegaMav
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Posts: 4694
Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
THS Average: 225
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 14
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
Location: Malta, NY

Re: Layout Advice needed

Post by MegaMav »

19866 wrote: April 5th, 2021, 1:22 am Radical Incognito and also need a more control layout on a Brunswick vapor zone.
Incognito (Solid I assume?) Benchmark: 65 x 4 x 35
Vapor Zone (Pearl? Hybrid? Solid?)
19866
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Posts: 8
Joined: January 11th, 2021, 9:20 pm
THS Average: 195
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 up
Speed: 17.5 off hand 14 pin deck
Rev Rate: 285
Axis Tilt: 23
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Conspiracy
Medium Oil Ball: Radical Zing Hybrid
Light Oil Ball: Storm Natural Pearl Urethane
Preferred Company: Brunswick
Location: Idaho

Re: Layout Advice needed

Post by 19866 »

Apor zone solid
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MegaMav
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Posts: 4694
Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
THS Average: 225
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 14
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
Location: Malta, NY

Re: Layout Advice needed

Post by MegaMav »

Vapor Zone Solid (Control) 80 x 2.5 x 40 @ 1000
19866
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Posts: 8
Joined: January 11th, 2021, 9:20 pm
THS Average: 195
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 up
Speed: 17.5 off hand 14 pin deck
Rev Rate: 285
Axis Tilt: 23
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Conspiracy
Medium Oil Ball: Radical Zing Hybrid
Light Oil Ball: Storm Natural Pearl Urethane
Preferred Company: Brunswick
Location: Idaho

Re: Layout Advice needed

Post by 19866 »

Thank you
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