Layout Advice needed
Moderator: Moderators
-
- Member
- Posts: 2
- Joined: July 17th, 2017, 12:35 am
- THS Average: 208
- Sport Average: 181
- Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8 > 1/8^
- Speed: 17.2mph off hand
- Rev Rate: 292
- Axis Tilt: 21
- Axis Rotation: 50
- Heavy Oil Ball: Brunswick Prism Hybrid (3k surface)
- Medium Oil Ball: phase III
- Light Oil Ball: onyx vibe
Layout Advice needed
I went to Kegel and got some new Specto data
RR 292
Speed off hand 17 Mph
Tilt 21
Axis Rotation 50
At 69 I was stunned by my Rev Rate. Its actually a bit higher since I had thumb issues that day but when I got out clean it was around 340. I hung up bad the first few shots then Del took me back and opened up my thumb.
I would rather be speed dominant anyway these days but I never was.
I bowl in a house with a 42 ft 25unts THS. 18 year Old Anvil lane.
The best ball I had in recent years was a Motiv Octane Carbon, 4 1/2 x 70. maintained at 3k surface.
I used a Onyx Vibe for a while, no big scores but very consistent. 5 1/4 x 35.
I have a Brunswick Prism Hybrid drilled 90x 1 1/12 x 50 that works sometimes but not consistently. I have tried a lot of surface changes and just like most of my other balls 3k works best.
Please advise this old man on layouts and surface changes that might work better for me.
Thanks!
RR 292
Speed off hand 17 Mph
Tilt 21
Axis Rotation 50
At 69 I was stunned by my Rev Rate. Its actually a bit higher since I had thumb issues that day but when I got out clean it was around 340. I hung up bad the first few shots then Del took me back and opened up my thumb.
I would rather be speed dominant anyway these days but I never was.
I bowl in a house with a 42 ft 25unts THS. 18 year Old Anvil lane.
The best ball I had in recent years was a Motiv Octane Carbon, 4 1/2 x 70. maintained at 3k surface.
I used a Onyx Vibe for a while, no big scores but very consistent. 5 1/4 x 35.
I have a Brunswick Prism Hybrid drilled 90x 1 1/12 x 50 that works sometimes but not consistently. I have tried a lot of surface changes and just like most of my other balls 3k works best.
Please advise this old man on layouts and surface changes that might work better for me.
Thanks!
Nobody knows everything, Always learning.
- EricHartwell
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 4080
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
- Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
- Speed: 16 off hand
- Rev Rate: 330
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
- Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
- Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
- Location: Michigan
Re: Layout Advice needed
I always start with figuring the benchmark and then work from there
Benchmark 1.25:1 Ratio, 100* Totals
Asymmetrical Layouts
Totally Strong ................. 50-4.5-30
Midlane ........................ 35-4.5-45
Benchmark .................... 55-4-45
Long and Strong .............. 75-4-45
Control ........................ 55-3.5-65
low flare ...................... 75-2.5-45
Symmetrical layouts
Benchmark ................... xx-4-40
Control ....................... xx-4.5-60 adjust to pin in the ring finger
low flare ..................... xx-5-35
Benchmark 1.25:1 Ratio, 100* Totals
Asymmetrical Layouts
Totally Strong ................. 50-4.5-30
Midlane ........................ 35-4.5-45
Benchmark .................... 55-4-45
Long and Strong .............. 75-4-45
Control ........................ 55-3.5-65
low flare ...................... 75-2.5-45
Symmetrical layouts
Benchmark ................... xx-4-40
Control ....................... xx-4.5-60 adjust to pin in the ring finger
low flare ..................... xx-5-35
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
-
- Member
- Posts: 2
- Joined: July 17th, 2017, 12:35 am
- THS Average: 208
- Sport Average: 181
- Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8 > 1/8^
- Speed: 17.2mph off hand
- Rev Rate: 292
- Axis Tilt: 21
- Axis Rotation: 50
- Heavy Oil Ball: Brunswick Prism Hybrid (3k surface)
- Medium Oil Ball: phase III
- Light Oil Ball: onyx vibe
Re: Layout Advice needed
Eric I cant thank you enough.
I was close on a few, looks like spot on with the control layout on the symmetrical since I have to go an inch below the ring finger and end up at 70 degree val. its my best layout .
I was close on a few, looks like spot on with the control layout on the symmetrical since I have to go an inch below the ring finger and end up at 70 degree val. its my best layout .
Nobody knows everything, Always learning.
-
- Member
- Posts: 9
- Joined: August 18th, 2015, 12:17 pm
- THS Average: 208
- Sport Average: 182
- Positive Axis Point: 4 11/16 >
- Speed: 17.2 off hand per specto
- Rev Rate: 292
- Axis Tilt: 21
- Axis Rotation: 50
- Heavy Oil Ball: Storm Parallax
- Medium Oil Ball: Storm IQ Nano Pearl
- Light Oil Ball: Looking
- Preferred Company: Storm/Roto
Re: Layout Advice needed
Just want to thank Eric again. The layout are working well.
-
- Member
- Posts: 8
- Joined: January 11th, 2021, 9:20 pm
- THS Average: 195
- Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 up
- Speed: 17.5 off hand 14 pin deck
- Rev Rate: 285
- Axis Tilt: 23
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Conspiracy
- Medium Oil Ball: Radical Zing Hybrid
- Light Oil Ball: Storm Natural Pearl Urethane
- Preferred Company: Brunswick
- Location: Idaho
Re: Layout Advice needed
I have a Radical Zing I want to drill with a short pin layout for a wet dry, (left to right), house shot. Mo Pinel gave me my base layout which is 45° x 4 1/2 x 30°. How much should I modify this for a 2" pin. 2" pin to pap.
Last edited by 19866 on March 11th, 2021, 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- MegaMav
- Moderator
- Posts: 4694
- Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
- THS Average: 225
- Sport Average: 200
- Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
- Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 14
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
- Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
- Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
- Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
- Location: Malta, NY
Re: Layout Advice needed
2" Pin to CG?
-
- Member
- Posts: 1
- Joined: April 19th, 2013, 3:30 am
- THS Average: 190
- Sport Average: 175
- Positive Axis Point: 5 7/16 X 3/8 up
- Speed: 14.5-15
- Axis Tilt: 18
- Heavy Oil Ball: magnitude 035, Radical ridiculous asym,
- Medium Oil Ball: Conspiracy hybrid, cutting edge hybrid
- Light Oil Ball: edge solid, edge pearl, fanatic btu pearl
- Preferred Company: Radical/ Brunswick
- Contact:
Layout Advice needed
I am looking for suggested layouts I can give to my ball driller that will work best for my game and get the desired shape I am looking for. I have pretty old equipment that sat undrilled until Winter 2019 and still have a few pieces to drill up. I mostly get my equipment drilled for sport shots and finding it difficult matching up to the transition on the house shot. I get my equipment drilled for sport due to seeking out tournaments/leagues that will most likely use a sport patterns. Unfortunately here in Chicago sport leagues do not exist, which forced me to join a regular league that uses a THS. I also have equipment for dry/short oil however I feel the layouts are not right for those conditions. I currently have a coach who is also my ball driller but he drills a different system and converts it to dual angle for me.
The various centers I bowl in all have synthetic lanes except for one which is wood.
My Current specs are as follows:
PAP: 5 7/16 X 3/8 up, remapped 5/27/19 from 4 1/2 X 3/16 up.
Axis tilt is 18-19 degrees
Speed: 14.5-15 mph (Monitor reading)
Rev Rate: unknown but I was told by my ball driller I am matched.
My current arsenal includes the following:
Ridiculous Asym- 35 X 4 1/2 X 35 (Double Thumb) Drilled 5/27/17 barely used it till Dec 2019. Also this is the only ball in my arsenal with a balance hole.
This arsenal were NIB drilled 2/28/19:
Magnitude 035- 35 X 4 5/8 X 40
Edge Pearl- 35 X 3/4 X 30
Edge Solid- 45 X 4 1/2 X 70
BTU Pearl- 45 X 4 X 70*
All were drilled with the intentions to use on short sport and dried up house shots.
This Arsenal was NIB drilled 01/27/20:
Conspiracy Hybrid- 55 X 6 X 35
Cyclops pearl- 75 X 5 1/2 X 40
Brunswick inferno blue flame- 50 X 5 1/4 X 40
My undrilled list includes the following:
Tremendous Pearl
Guru Supreme
Katana Legend
Radical sizzle
Radical Beyond Ridiculous
The various centers I bowl in all have synthetic lanes except for one which is wood.
My Current specs are as follows:
PAP: 5 7/16 X 3/8 up, remapped 5/27/19 from 4 1/2 X 3/16 up.
Axis tilt is 18-19 degrees
Speed: 14.5-15 mph (Monitor reading)
Rev Rate: unknown but I was told by my ball driller I am matched.
My current arsenal includes the following:
Ridiculous Asym- 35 X 4 1/2 X 35 (Double Thumb) Drilled 5/27/17 barely used it till Dec 2019. Also this is the only ball in my arsenal with a balance hole.
This arsenal were NIB drilled 2/28/19:
Magnitude 035- 35 X 4 5/8 X 40
Edge Pearl- 35 X 3/4 X 30
Edge Solid- 45 X 4 1/2 X 70
BTU Pearl- 45 X 4 X 70*
All were drilled with the intentions to use on short sport and dried up house shots.
This Arsenal was NIB drilled 01/27/20:
Conspiracy Hybrid- 55 X 6 X 35
Cyclops pearl- 75 X 5 1/2 X 40
Brunswick inferno blue flame- 50 X 5 1/4 X 40
My undrilled list includes the following:
Tremendous Pearl
Guru Supreme
Katana Legend
Radical sizzle
Radical Beyond Ridiculous
- EricHartwell
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 4080
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
- Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
- Speed: 16 off hand
- Rev Rate: 330
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
- Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
- Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
- Location: Michigan
Re: Layout Advice needed
Estimated rev rate only gets estimated layouts.
Also needed is the angle of rotation. Will use 45* med rotation for estimates
For the estimate, 1:1 ratio and 100* totals to start your layouts from for house shots.
Estimated Asymmetrical Layouts
Totally Strong .......... 50-5-30
Midlane ................. 30-4.5-50
Benchmark ............ 50-4.25-50
Long and Strong ...... 70-4.25-50
Control ................ 50-4.5-70
low flare .............. 70-2.25-50
Totally Strong and Midlane layouts are, for the most part, too Strong for House shots unless you are speed dominant or bowling on a flood.
My undrilled list includes the following: estimated layout suggestions
Tremendous Pearl ................................. 70-4-50
Guru Supreme ................................... 50-4.5-70
Katana Legend ................................... 70-2.25-50
Radical sizzle .................................... xx-4.75-35
Radical Beyond Ridiculous .................... xx-4.75-55 pin in the ring finger
Also needed is the angle of rotation. Will use 45* med rotation for estimates
For the estimate, 1:1 ratio and 100* totals to start your layouts from for house shots.
Estimated Asymmetrical Layouts
Totally Strong .......... 50-5-30
Midlane ................. 30-4.5-50
Benchmark ............ 50-4.25-50
Long and Strong ...... 70-4.25-50
Control ................ 50-4.5-70
low flare .............. 70-2.25-50
Totally Strong and Midlane layouts are, for the most part, too Strong for House shots unless you are speed dominant or bowling on a flood.
My undrilled list includes the following: estimated layout suggestions
Tremendous Pearl ................................. 70-4-50
Guru Supreme ................................... 50-4.5-70
Katana Legend ................................... 70-2.25-50
Radical sizzle .................................... xx-4.75-35
Radical Beyond Ridiculous .................... xx-4.75-55 pin in the ring finger
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
-
- Member
- Posts: 8
- Joined: January 11th, 2021, 9:20 pm
- THS Average: 195
- Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 up
- Speed: 17.5 off hand 14 pin deck
- Rev Rate: 285
- Axis Tilt: 23
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Conspiracy
- Medium Oil Ball: Radical Zing Hybrid
- Light Oil Ball: Storm Natural Pearl Urethane
- Preferred Company: Brunswick
- Location: Idaho
- EricHartwell
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 4080
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
- Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
- Speed: 16 off hand
- Rev Rate: 330
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
- Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
- Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
- Location: Michigan
Re: Layout Advice needed
With 23* of Tilt I would Not recommend a 2" pin to PAP on an Asymmetrical ball.
With the release specs listed in your profile I would recommend a Control Layout 35-5-55 adjust to put the pin in the middle finger.
An option with this kind of layout is to drill the middle finger deeper to reduce the flare.
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
-
- Member
- Posts: 8
- Joined: January 11th, 2021, 9:20 pm
- THS Average: 195
- Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 up
- Speed: 17.5 off hand 14 pin deck
- Rev Rate: 285
- Axis Tilt: 23
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Conspiracy
- Medium Oil Ball: Radical Zing Hybrid
- Light Oil Ball: Storm Natural Pearl Urethane
- Preferred Company: Brunswick
- Location: Idaho
Re: Layout Advice needed
Thank you, I'll try it. Your a tremendous asset to this forum.
-
- Member
- Posts: 8
- Joined: January 11th, 2021, 9:20 pm
- THS Average: 195
- Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 up
- Speed: 17.5 off hand 14 pin deck
- Rev Rate: 285
- Axis Tilt: 23
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Conspiracy
- Medium Oil Ball: Radical Zing Hybrid
- Light Oil Ball: Storm Natural Pearl Urethane
- Preferred Company: Brunswick
- Location: Idaho
Re: Layout Advice needed
I have been less than thrilled with my benchmark layout given to me by Pinel, ( I think it was from Mikey). That and Eric helped me with a layout ( thank you, Eric), but also said he didn't think I would like a 2" pin ball, and I do like it. All this led me to recheck my stats, and yes they were off. New ones on profile. So trying to figure my own layouts, and I have questions. Starting at 100° total sum, minus 5° for the high tilt. Then looking at the wiki chart my ratio for 23° of tilt should be 1:1.25. Right? But under the ratio adjustment instructions, for my high tilt it says I should be using 1:2 to 1:3. I have done pretty well with Radical's suggested layouts on Asym's, haven't drilled a sym lately. I also seems the instructions for finding your sweet spot may be out of date especially for symetrical balls, ( because of the new no extra hole rule, I suppose). I am thinking the same thing for the Paddock app.. My pap now 5 over 1/2 up, and axis rotation 45°. Was over 4 3/4 over 1/2 up, and 60° axis rotation. Pap has changed and I probably just messed up on the rotation.
Anyone feeling like helping me out with advise or giving me layouts? Thanks, Larry 19866
Anyone feeling like helping me out with advise or giving me layouts? Thanks, Larry 19866
- MegaMav
- Moderator
- Posts: 4694
- Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
- THS Average: 225
- Sport Average: 200
- Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
- Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 14
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
- Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
- Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
- Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
- Location: Malta, NY
Re: Layout Advice needed
Which ball is this for Larry?
-
- Member
- Posts: 8
- Joined: January 11th, 2021, 9:20 pm
- THS Average: 195
- Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 up
- Speed: 17.5 off hand 14 pin deck
- Rev Rate: 285
- Axis Tilt: 23
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Conspiracy
- Medium Oil Ball: Radical Zing Hybrid
- Light Oil Ball: Storm Natural Pearl Urethane
- Preferred Company: Brunswick
- Location: Idaho
Re: Layout Advice needed
Radical Incognito and also need a more control layout on a Brunswick vapor zone.
-
- Member
- Posts: 8
- Joined: January 11th, 2021, 9:20 pm
- THS Average: 195
- Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 up
- Speed: 17.5 off hand 14 pin deck
- Rev Rate: 285
- Axis Tilt: 23
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Conspiracy
- Medium Oil Ball: Radical Zing Hybrid
- Light Oil Ball: Storm Natural Pearl Urethane
- Preferred Company: Brunswick
- Location: Idaho
Re: Layout Advice needed
Was also considering buying a Hy Road Pearl for that control layout.
- MegaMav
- Moderator
- Posts: 4694
- Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
- THS Average: 225
- Sport Average: 200
- Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
- Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 14
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
- Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
- Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
- Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
- Location: Malta, NY
Re: Layout Advice needed
Incognito (Solid I assume?) Benchmark: 65 x 4 x 35
Vapor Zone (Pearl? Hybrid? Solid?)
-
- Member
- Posts: 8
- Joined: January 11th, 2021, 9:20 pm
- THS Average: 195
- Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 up
- Speed: 17.5 off hand 14 pin deck
- Rev Rate: 285
- Axis Tilt: 23
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Conspiracy
- Medium Oil Ball: Radical Zing Hybrid
- Light Oil Ball: Storm Natural Pearl Urethane
- Preferred Company: Brunswick
- Location: Idaho
Re: Layout Advice needed
Apor zone solid
- MegaMav
- Moderator
- Posts: 4694
- Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
- THS Average: 225
- Sport Average: 200
- Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
- Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 14
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
- Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
- Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
- Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
- Location: Malta, NY
Re: Layout Advice needed
Vapor Zone Solid (Control) 80 x 2.5 x 40 @ 1000
-
- Member
- Posts: 8
- Joined: January 11th, 2021, 9:20 pm
- THS Average: 195
- Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2 up
- Speed: 17.5 off hand 14 pin deck
- Rev Rate: 285
- Axis Tilt: 23
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Conspiracy
- Medium Oil Ball: Radical Zing Hybrid
- Light Oil Ball: Storm Natural Pearl Urethane
- Preferred Company: Brunswick
- Location: Idaho
Re: Layout Advice needed
Thank you