Layout advice for Mrs. DMSarch

Which layout is right for me?

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dmsarch
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Layout advice for Mrs. DMSarch

Post by dmsarch » December 9th, 2019, 4:43 am

Hi all... Wanted to see how I've done coming up with layouts for my dear wife, so will compare with your recommendations. Here's her stats:

PAP: 6" over, 1" up.
Revs: 200 RPM
Speed off hand: 10 to 11 MPH
Axis Tilt: Less than 7*
Axis Rotation: 45* - She can vary this by 20* either way, at will.

She throws a backup ball... and it's surprising powerful. As such, I lay out her balls as if she were a lefty. She throws 13 lb. equipment. Her comfort zone is rolling between 3rd and 4th arrows, swinging out to 10/12 or so at the break point on a 40 ft THS. She plays sport shots weekly, and tries to find a straighter, more inside shot if she can on them (which often benefits her compared to house shot heroes trying to bounce it off the non-existent 'bumper'... That includes yours truly! <vlg>). She's ALWAYS in the oil. <g>

Home houses are Brunswick Prolane, but occaisionally she'll play at houses with older AMF synthetics.

I got her a Track Paradox V for Christmas, since she doesn't really have a strong, assym, low RG pearl in her bag, presently. That said, would of course love to get the 'full spectrum' layout assortment for future equipment situations.

Thanks!!

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Re: Layout advice for Mrs. DMSarch

Post by TonyPR » December 9th, 2019, 3:54 pm

Strong asymmetricals and such a low ball speed I don’t know... Is there any way we can get her to increase her ball speed to at least 12 mph at the pins?

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Re: Layout advice for Mrs. DMSarch

Post by dmsarch » December 9th, 2019, 5:15 pm

Tony,

Well... Her benchmark ball is a Brunswick Ultimate Nirvana at P3000. She does develop more speed on higher volume shots... Speeds I've quoted are for our low volume house shots on somewhat aged lane panels. Her back swing is normally somewhat low, but she can wail on it a little if she wants to. She's been working on just that, actually. Off hand speed I've quoted is the low end. Other balls she has and likes are a Brunswick True Motion at P500/P1500/Light Polish, Roto Grip Hustle Ink at P2500, and Brunswick Kingpin at P2000 (for higher volume shots).

Short answer... Yeah, I could probably work with her on developing a bit more speed. Wouldn't be too hard... She's a five stepper.

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Re: Layout advice for Mrs. DMSarch

Post by dmsarch » December 9th, 2019, 6:05 pm

Tony.. Went back and looked at our video from nationals this year (we bought the 'video your set' package). She was achieving 14 MPH averaged over the length of the shot that day. So... Yes, she could easily achieve more ball speed. She was good that week; cashed all her brackets in the Plaza and cashed the BJI handicap singles division, too.

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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout advice for Mrs. DMSarch

Post by EricHartwell » December 9th, 2019, 11:07 pm

Using the left handed layouts is the way to go.
When I model 5* of tilt I see it clipping the thumb hole on the initial track. Does she thump the thumb hole on her initial track?

How are the Speed and revs being measured?

11-12 off the hand compared to and average speed of 14 at nationals is a big discrepancy.
I don't know where to start without accurate numbers.

Check out this link to help in getting release specs...

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=373
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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Re: Layout advice for Mrs. DMSarch

Post by dmsarch » December 10th, 2019, 12:09 am

Eric,

Revs, tilt and rotation were measured off video within last 6 months... Those are solid numbers.

Discussed ball speed with her this afternoon. She say's she's been 'pulling her punch' a bit lately, as she's always worried she's going to blow her ball through the break point. That's one reason she's said she'd like to experiment with a lower RG, strong covered ball... so she can put a little more 'shit' on it <g>. As such, she's pretty certain she can consistently and accurately achieve 12 to 14 MPH off her hand.

I'd noticed she'd slown down a bit... My above ball speeds reflect that. She's been reading about 9.5 to 9.8 on our main center's monitors, which measure at the backend. With that number in hand, I figured around 10 to 11 off the hand. Upon looking at her video from nationals, and frame counting, I came up with the 14 MPH number, which is probably 14.5 at the foul line and 13.5 at the pins on the Plaza's pristine lane panels. For sake of this exercise, let's put her at 13 off the hand.

I took her Kingpin and put it at P1000 this evening. She'll be rolling it tonight on fresh THS at our nicest house (best panels / topography)... Holding it a little higher in her stance and really steppin' forward with her feet to 'get it out there' like she was in Vegas. I'll watch her speed and see what that tells us. Nationals this year was her best bowling yet, and she had a great time. She was rolling it with confidence and abandon, which she has a hard time doing sometimes; she's a very 'careful' personality. She's going to try to get loose and pitch it like a guy tonight.

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Re: Layout advice for Mrs. DMSarch

Post by dmsarch » December 10th, 2019, 12:23 am

Oh.. Failed to answer your other question!

No, she doesn't clip the thumb, but as you'd expect comes damn close! It' only about 1/4 inch away on the initial track. Her favorite ball (The Ultimate Nirvana) is drilled 95*x4"x45* and it doesn't thump. Kingpin she'll be rolling tonight has the same layout... They're almost the same ball, really, except the KP is newer and has more surface. The Nirvana is ancient and stays pretty close to lane shine at all times (I put it P3000 whenever I resurface it for her, about every 30 games).

Anyhow... Sorry to be so vociferous here. She's a pretty unconventional bowler, but has had a lot of success, so I'm reticent to mess with her too much. That said, she (and I, as her ball driller), would like to really get a top opinion on her layouts so we can know that that's not one of the things holding her back from continued progress.

Thanks again!

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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout advice for Mrs. DMSarch

Post by EricHartwell » December 10th, 2019, 12:43 am

PAP: 6" over, 1" up.
Revs: 200 RPM
Speed off hand: 13 MPH
Axis Tilt: Less than 7*
Axis Rotation: 45* - She can vary this by 20* either way, at will.

110 total, 2.25:1 Ratio

Asymmetrical Layouts
Totally Strong ............. 65-4.5-25
Midlane .................... 55-4-35
Benchmark ................ 75-3.5-35
Long and Strong .......... 90-3.5-35
Control .................... 75-3-55
Low flare ................. 90-1.75-30
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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Re: Layout advice for Mrs. DMSarch

Post by dmsarch » December 10th, 2019, 12:59 am

Eric,

Thanks very much! If she's hitting the speed correctly tonight, then we'll run with these layouts. If not, I'll report back. Layout I was going to try on the new Paradox before posting here was 70*x5"x40* for benchmark look, so I wasn't terribly far off.

Gradually learning how to do this! Appreciate the help!

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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout advice for Mrs. DMSarch

Post by EricHartwell » December 10th, 2019, 1:27 am

5" pin to PAP is Benchmark for higher tilt players.
With her low tilt a shorter pin to PAP will keep the tilt from burning off too soon and increase her carry percentage.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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Re: Layout advice for Mrs. DMSarch

Post by dmsarch » December 10th, 2019, 7:48 am

Eric,

>>>5" pin to PAP is Benchmark for higher tilt players.

Understood. Will adhere to your recommendations on pin-to-pap - get it shorter.

As long as we're here, I'll report. She rolled with gusto tonight to give us an idea of her full-bore delivery and was consistently getting 11.5 to 12.5 on the pin deck, so we're safe on the speed assumptions you've utilized; She's gotta be right near 13 off the hand.

And to confirm your work... She by far had the best look tonight with her shiny True Motion which is... 3 3/8" x 35*! She often reaches for that ball when she wants a predictable reaction and other balls aren't cutting it. That shorter pin-to-pap is probably what gives her the high comfort level with it.

Thanks again... This has been incredibly helpful! Going to try the Benchmark layout on the Paradox, then see what she thinks, and go from there. Will check in to let you know how it's going after a spell. She's up for a fresh arsenal this year, so wanted to really get it right this time. Will be curious to see her shot with reactive once we've adjusted that pin-to-pap measurement.

Thanks again and talk soon!

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THS Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 6 3/16 x 1/2 up
Speed: 13.8 at pindeck
Rev Rate: 230
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Re: Layout advice for Mrs. DMSarch

Post by boomer » December 10th, 2019, 10:51 pm

one thing I'd note - my wife is backup and for years had her thumbs all drilled as per a righty because 4 different PSO's didn't notice it. She's right handed, after all, so . . . She had been hanging up in the ball for YEARS. Each of the PSO's said, well, that's what you get throwing backup. >:(

Most recent PSO (who's a lefty) noticed that her thumb was drilled as per a righty, but throws backup/lefty. He fixed one - literally swapped it from right to left (I don't remember which it was. . . it was one or the other) and she hasn't hung up in it since; her average is driving up; she's not scared to release the ball anymore; and she's REALLY enjoying bowling much more.

I have a feeling you already know this but I thought it worth mentioning anyway.

Cheers

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EricHartwell
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Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout advice for Mrs. DMSarch

Post by EricHartwell » December 11th, 2019, 12:19 am

dmsarch wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 7:48 am
Eric,

>>>5" pin to PAP is Benchmark for higher tilt players.

Understood. Will adhere to your recommendations on pin-to-pap - get it shorter.

As long as we're here, I'll report. She rolled with gusto tonight to give us an idea of her full-bore delivery and was consistently getting 11.5 to 12.5 on the pin deck, so we're safe on the speed assumptions you've utilized; She's gotta be right near 13 off the hand.

And to confirm your work... She by far had the best look tonight with her shiny True Motion which is... 3 3/8" x 35*! She often reaches for that ball when she wants a predictable reaction and other balls aren't cutting it. That shorter pin-to-pap is probably what gives her the high comfort level with it.

Thanks again... This has been incredibly helpful! Going to try the Benchmark layout on the Paradox, then see what she thinks, and go from there. Will check in to let you know how it's going after a spell. She's up for a fresh arsenal this year, so wanted to really get it right this time. Will be curious to see her shot with reactive once we've adjusted that pin-to-pap measurement.

Thanks again and talk soon!
The True Motion is Symmetrical, Pin to PAP has the opposite affect. 3 3/8" is a Strong pin to PAP especially for a low tilt bowler. The weak coverstock/prep of Shiny Urethane coupled with a Strong core position I think is working together for her comfort level.
Measuring to the thumb hole the Layout is 90-3 3/8-35. Long and Strong layout with a weak coverstock.
At 13# the core is fairly Strong starting with a .040 Differential.
The flare potential is definitely there.
I definitely see why she likes it.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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Re: Layout advice for Mrs. DMSarch

Post by dmsarch » December 11th, 2019, 2:44 am

Eric,

Yes, the 90* drill angle jibes with the thumbhole to pin angle. Very interesting. I'll add this to the list as Symmetrical core option.

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Re: Layout advice for Mrs. DMSarch

Post by dmsarch » December 11th, 2019, 2:49 am

Boomer,

This is interesting, too... Tell me more, please. Right now, Mrs. DMSarch has 1/4" fwd, 3/16" left thumb pitches. She doesn't hang up, But she -is- sensitive to thumb hole fit... It's not uncommon for her to add or remove fitting tape once or twice per night; particularly if there's high humidity. Are you suggesting we try zero lateral or perhaps a little right pitch on the thumb?

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Re: Layout advice for Mrs. DMSarch

Post by TonyPR » December 12th, 2019, 4:50 am

Adding or removing tape once or twice per night is very common, if she is releasing good and has no pain or blisters I say leave it like it is, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

Eric Hartwell is really good at prescribing layouts and matching them with balls and surface, thank you Eric. For reference, speed off the hand can vary anywhere from 2-4 mph more than at the pins, here we use 2.5 mph as a rough guide, for example 15 mph at the pins is 17.5 mph off the hand. For her specs she will strike more if she rolls it at her normal high speed and if she’s missing the breakpoint we can change to a lower grit surface or a stronger ball. I like to use speed at the pins to determine ball weight a bowler should use, for example if a bowler rolls a 14 lbs at 13 mph at the pins but can roll 13 lbs at 14 mph then the 13 lbs is probably better for that player.

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Re: Layout advice for Mrs. DMSarch

Post by dmsarch » December 12th, 2019, 7:29 am

Tony,

Thanks for the info. After some additional research, saw that left thumb pitch is actually quite common for right-handed backup rollers. Her hand is pristine, so fit is good... Won't be changing it.

Funny you should mention ball weight. She did try getting up to 14, but the ball was bowling her and not the other way around! She's 5'-2" and 130 lbs. soaking wet, so she's happy staying at 13 lbs. She does indeed get more favorable ball speed at the lower weight. It's just a chore finding equipment with nice, dynamic cores like you can get in 14 thru 16. Some balls she's thought she might like don't even come in 13, so sometimes there's major compromise. It's okay - she'll soldier on! She beat myself and one of my buddies tonight for one game on Winding Road, so she can hold her own! ;-) The Kingpin with P1500 was hitting nice for her on that shot (put up 144, 171, 183). Can't wait to see her roll the Paradox on the THS.

Thanks again to all you guys. We'll see how she does this year with more suitable layouts.

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Re: Layout advice for Mrs. DMSarch

Post by TonyPR » December 12th, 2019, 8:49 pm

The Brunswick Prisms both have good numbers in 13 lbs. If you can find one, the Radical Ludicrous and the Ludicrous Solid are probably the beat asymmetricals available in 13lbs. A very good Symmetrical block at that weight is the Cyclone core Ebonite uses in their Destiny line, all great balls. Finally the Widow Urethane is a great asymmetrical if she wants/needs a urethane for sport shots. Hope this helps.

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Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout advice for Mrs. DMSarch

Post by EricHartwell » December 12th, 2019, 11:20 pm

TonyPR wrote:
December 12th, 2019, 8:49 pm
The Brunswick Prisms both have good numbers in 13 lbs. If you can find one, the Radical Ludicrous and the Ludicrous Solid are probably the beat asymmetricals available in 13lbs. A very good Symmetrical block at that weight is the Cyclone core Ebonite uses in their Destiny line, all great balls. Finally the Widow Urethane is a great asymmetrical if she wants/needs a urethane for sport shots. Hope this helps.
I roll 13# equipment.
I'm not a big guy and sports injuries have humbled my game but I continue to rehab. At this point my goal is not to move up in weight. 13# pound equipment is getting better with every new release and I can bowl without shoulder or wrist pain. I leave more 9 pins than I do 10 pins. So I'm sticking with 13#.

Is the Black Widow Urethane really Asymmetrical at 13# ???
The Black Widow Pink Pearl is Not Asymmetrical at 13#, just got one for the wife. She rolls 13# too.

If that is true I know what I am getting for Christmas.
My current Dull Urethane is a True Motion drilled with A Motion Hole that will be deemed illegal after this season.
I've been utilizing balance holes to make up for weak cores. Looking forward to more options with Asymmetrical products.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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Re: Layout advice for Mrs. DMSarch

Post by TonyPR » December 13th, 2019, 7:02 pm

My daughter used to have a Widow Urethane and it has a marked PSA, if you look at their website there is no photo of the generic core and the diff is higher than the Pink which does have a generic core. Email Mitch (Beasley) just to make sure but I am 98% certain it’s an asymmetrical... same as with the Widow Spare.

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