Effective Ball Motion Without a Hole! - Full Seminar

Which layout is right for me?

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
bowl1820
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 1383
Joined: July 9th, 2012, 10:09 pm
Location: Central Florida

Effective Ball Motion Without a Hole! - Full Seminar

Post by bowl1820 » October 3rd, 2019, 3:43 am

The Shape of Things to Come - Effective Ball Motion Without a Hole! - Full Seminar

Introducing Mo Pinel's - "The Shape of Things to Come - Effective Ball Motion Without a Hole! "

September 2019 Full Seminar

[youtube][/youtube]
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."

Glenn
Member
Member
Posts: 149
Joined: May 11th, 2015, 11:00 pm
THS Average: 170
Positive Axis Point: 4.375 over & .5 up
Speed: 15.2 (foul line)
Rev Rate: 184
Axis Tilt: 10
Axis Rotation: 50
Light Oil Ball: Columbia 300 Nitrous
Preferred Company: Roto Grip
Location: Mid-west

Re: Effective Ball Motion Without a Hole! - Full Seminar

Post by Glenn » October 10th, 2019, 1:12 pm

Thanks! I never get to attend Mo's seminars.

My take-away from all of this is:
1. Pro Shops only need to consider these 9 layouts (4+5) - for the average bowler.
2. Pin-Down layouts have a place, but never on SYM balls.
3. The Drilling Angle does not matter on SYM balls.
4. Urethane is frowned upon (?)
5. It is legal to drill thumb holes deeper.

I have some concerns about the presentation:
1. Mo seems to be saying that these 9 layouts (4+5) are all you need for the average house bowler (the bowler-specific layouts are for more advanced bowlers).
2. The Sym layouts have an angle sum separate of 15 degrees (between average and advanced), but the ASYM layouts have angle sum separation of 20 degrees for ABC - not DE.
3. Mo's ASYM Layout D has a VAL angle greater than 70-degrees (75).
4. Mo advocates drilling the thumb holes deeper (as long as the thumb hole is drilled the same diameter for its entire length).

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14451" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wish Mo would have spent some time talking about how to match up bowling balls with the layouts, what source of information to use, which ball/layout combinations to avoid, etc.

User avatar
trackbowler
Matchplay Champion
Matchplay Champion
Posts: 515
Joined: February 4th, 2011, 5:28 pm
THS Average: 220
Preferred Company: Radical
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Effective Ball Motion Without a Hole! - Full Seminar

Post by trackbowler » October 10th, 2019, 7:33 pm

I can answer a couple of these:
Glenn wrote:2. The Sym layouts have an angle sum separate of 15 degrees (between average and advanced), but the ASYM layouts have angle sum separation of 20 degrees for ABC - not DE.
Mo has stopped referring to total sums for a while now. He's been using recommendations on surface changes to control where the ball starts hooking and the layout to determine the shape the ball will make once it starts.
Glenn wrote:3. Mo's ASYM Layout D has a VAL angle greater than 70-degrees (75).
Something to take note of the dual angle method on the wiki was posted over 10 years ago and Mo hasn't posted here in a long time. All that has happened here is he has changed what he believes is the maximum allowable to 75 degrees. If you don't feel comfortable with it then you can use 70 but Mo has done all the empirical tests himself and wouldn't have put that layout out without doing so.
Glenn wrote:4. Mo advocates drilling the thumb holes deeper (as long as the thumb hole is drilled the same diameter for its entire length).
The reason Mo now advocates the same size bit is that the usbc ruled that using a smaller bit is illegal.
Kyle Robinson
Ball Speed - 18 off hand
Revs - 350
Tilt - 15
Rotation - 40-60
PAP - 5 over

Glenn
Member
Member
Posts: 149
Joined: May 11th, 2015, 11:00 pm
THS Average: 170
Positive Axis Point: 4.375 over & .5 up
Speed: 15.2 (foul line)
Rev Rate: 184
Axis Tilt: 10
Axis Rotation: 50
Light Oil Ball: Columbia 300 Nitrous
Preferred Company: Roto Grip
Location: Mid-west

Re: Effective Ball Motion Without a Hole! - Full Seminar

Post by Glenn » October 10th, 2019, 8:38 pm

Wow, Kyle, thanks so much!
It seems like the more I try to keep up the further behind I get! LOL!

KYBOB
Member
Member
Posts: 123
Joined: January 26th, 2010, 3:31 am
THS Average: 214
Positive Axis Point: 4" Left - 1"^
Speed: 18-19 (off hand)
Rev Rate: 275
Axis Tilt: 23*
Axis Rotation: 50+-
Preferred Company: Morich, Radical
Location: Nicholasville, KY

Re: Effective Ball Motion Without a Hole! - Full Seminar

Post by KYBOB » October 11th, 2019, 5:17 am

trackbowler wrote:I can answer a couple of these:


Mo has stopped referring to total sums for a while now. He's been using recommendations on surface changes to control where the ball starts hooking and the layout to determine the shape the ball will make once it starts.



Something to take note of the dual angle method on the wiki was posted over 10 years ago and Mo hasn't posted here in a long time. All that has happened here is he has changed what he believes is the maximum allowable to 75 degrees. If you don't feel comfortable with it then you can use 70 but Mo has done all the empirical tests himself and wouldn't have put that layout out without doing so.



The reason Mo now advocates the same size bit is that the usbc ruled that using a smaller bit is illegal.
In the video Mo says when using a slug or an interchangeable thumb it is legal to drill the thumb hole deeper with a smaller bit than the original hole AS LONG AS THE HOLE STAYS ON THE SAME AXIS AS THE ORIGNAL HOLE....see video for details...starts at 1:00:19
KyBOB
________________________________

STATS:

LH
PAP = 4"< x 1"^
Speed = 18-19 off hand
Rev Rate = 250-275
AR = 45*-50*
AT = 23*

Glenn
Member
Member
Posts: 149
Joined: May 11th, 2015, 11:00 pm
THS Average: 170
Positive Axis Point: 4.375 over & .5 up
Speed: 15.2 (foul line)
Rev Rate: 184
Axis Tilt: 10
Axis Rotation: 50
Light Oil Ball: Columbia 300 Nitrous
Preferred Company: Roto Grip
Location: Mid-west

Re: Effective Ball Motion Without a Hole! - Full Seminar

Post by Glenn » October 11th, 2019, 8:49 pm

KYBOB,

This is how I interpret what Mo said (assuming he hasn't altered his position since the video was produced):

In my example, I will use a 1-1/2 inch slug (to remove as much material as possible) and then drill the thumb hole 1-1/4 inch for a thumb insert. So, I would drill the first hole 1-1/2 inches to a depth that will accommodate the slug (usually about 3 inches deep). Next, I would take a 1-7/16 inch bit and drill the hole an additional 1-1/4 inches deep on the same axis. Install the plug and drill the plug with a 1-1/4 inch bit for the thumb on the same axis to accommodate the thumb insert - drilling through the plug into the void I created below. In this example, the hole extended below the drilled plug would be a larger diameter than the actual thumb hole. I believe this is illegal.

The USBC stated that " Any secondary hole drilled inside of a gripping hole that is not intended for gripping purpose is considered a void and not allowed except for vent holes." I believe that any hole of a any smaller/larger diameter fits this definition.

If the thumb hole were 1-1/4 inches in diameter for the entire length of 4-1/4 inches, I would believe that it would be legal. And, you would still have the benefit of removing as much material as possible because you used a large diameter plug.

Thoughts?

User avatar
deanchamp
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 390
Joined: August 4th, 2010, 10:23 am
THS Average: 220
Positive Axis Point: 5 3/4” across, 1/4” up
Speed: 18 mph
Rev Rate: 400
Axis Tilt: 16
Axis Rotation: 50
Heavy Oil Ball: Alpha Crux, Phase II, Sure Lock, Crux Prime
Medium Oil Ball: Idol Pro, Torrent, Conspiracy Hybrid, Marvel S
Light Oil Ball: Black Hammer, Phobia, Hustle Ink
Preferred Company: Radical and Storm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Effective Ball Motion Without a Hole! - Full Seminar

Post by deanchamp » October 12th, 2019, 1:03 am

2. Pin-Down layouts have a place, but never on SYM balls.

Not sure why this is mentioned when the new Closer symm ball has 2 x pin down layouts on the Radical drilling sheet.

Smooth Hook: Pin Under 85°x 4" x 85°

Length with Control: Pin Under 80°x 5 1/4" x 80°

Which is assuming pin down and pin under are the same thing.
USBC Silver Level Coach
BCU Graduate - Mastery of Layouts

User avatar
MegaMav
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4475
Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
THS Average: 230
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 4 15/16 Over 3/8 Up
Speed: 15.25 MPH - Camera
Rev Rate: 350
Axis Tilt: 14
Axis Rotation: 40
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - The Closer
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswck - Method Solid
Light Oil Ball: DV8 - Poison Pearl
Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
Location: Malta, NY

Re: Effective Ball Motion Without a Hole! - Full Seminar

Post by MegaMav » October 12th, 2019, 1:14 am

Presentation material is on the wiki, courtesy of Mo.
“When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.” - Bill Walsh

Glenn
Member
Member
Posts: 149
Joined: May 11th, 2015, 11:00 pm
THS Average: 170
Positive Axis Point: 4.375 over & .5 up
Speed: 15.2 (foul line)
Rev Rate: 184
Axis Tilt: 10
Axis Rotation: 50
Light Oil Ball: Columbia 300 Nitrous
Preferred Company: Roto Grip
Location: Mid-west

Re: Effective Ball Motion Without a Hole! - Full Seminar

Post by Glenn » October 12th, 2019, 3:43 pm

Thanks to Mo and MegaMav for the PDF of the presentation.

Dean,
I am going out on a limb here and say that part of the confusion and "discrepancies" may be due to being in a transition period.
Here are my assumptions and I will wait until the dust settles on this stuff:
1. The 9 simplified layouts relate to only new Radical balls designed for the new rules (True SYM and Moderate ASYM bowling balls). I have ASYMs with diffs greater than 0.053 - use current layout recommendations even Pin-to-PAP in the 3-inch range ?
2. These layouts may not be appropriate for the equipment designs of other manufacturers (at the present??) - will they have their own "simplified layouts" in the future ?.
3. Like you, I have noticed "variations" on these simplified layouts when looking at the new ball specs, but maybe they don't conform to the new categories (transition).
4. The presentation materials that MegaMav loaded to the Wiki makes no mention of the legal deeper thumb hole discussion in the Bonus portion of the workshop/seminar. Kyle's response would indicate that Mo's comments in the video are being clarified.

Bottom line is that IDK ...

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3593
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Effective Ball Motion Without a Hole! - Full Seminar

Post by EricHartwell » October 12th, 2019, 4:27 pm

Cut and pasted from the USBC Rules...
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net ... lebook.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

b. Effective 8/1/2018:
1) Holes.
a) Holes or indentations for gripping purposes
i) Shall not exceed five and shall be limited to one for each finger and one for the thumb, all
for the same hand.
ii) Shall not exceed 1-9/16” diameter and 4-1/2” deep, including holes required to install
removeable devices.
iii)Must be used on every delivery.
b) Any secondary hole drilled inside of a gripping hole that is not intended for gripping
purpose is considered a void and not allowed.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Post Reply