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 Post subject: Layout Recommendation
 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:34 am Post Number: #1 Post
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Speed: 16.8 (Whole Lane Average)
Revs: 210 (Whole Lane Average)
Tilt: 15-20
Rotation: 70-75
For a Typical House Shot, with seemingly higher volumes.

If I've read and understand the wiki correctly...

This makes him speed dominant, for an angle sum of 80*.
Tilt/Rotation lead me to believe I'm looking at 1:1 or 1:1.25 ratios, with heavier oil favoring the latter.
I'm still clueless to Pin to Pap, no matter how much I read, but based on previous examples from this forum my guesses are:

Symmetrical: 40x3x40
Asymmetrical: 35x4x45

Am I in the right ball park for this bowler?

*** There is one wrench to throw in. This bowler who tends to loft the ball out about 5 feet, which leads to 1 bounce of the ball shortly after. Do you make any type of adjustments for this? Perhaps treat them as more speed dominant, since the ball isn't seeing friction as early as normal, preventing the hook phase/extending the skid phase artificially? Either by total sum or ratios?

Thanks in advance!


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 Post subject: Re: Layout Recommendation
 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:02 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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Adrenaline wrote:
Speed: 16.8 (Whole Lane Average)
Revs: 210 (Whole Lane Average)
Tilt: 15-20
Rotation: 70-75
For a Typical House Shot, with seemingly higher volumes.

If I've read and understand the wiki correctly...

This makes him speed dominant, for an angle sum of 80*.
Tilt/Rotation lead me to believe I'm looking at 1:1 or 1:1.25 ratios, with heavier oil favoring the latter.
I'm still clueless to Pin to Pap, no matter how much I read, but based on previous examples from this forum my guesses are:

Symmetrical: 40x3x40
Asymmetrical: 35x4x45

Am I in the right ball park for this bowler?

*** There is one wrench to throw in. This bowler who tends to loft the ball out about 5 feet, which leads to 1 bounce of the ball shortly after. Do you make any type of adjustments for this? Perhaps treat them as more speed dominant, since the ball isn't seeing friction as early as normal, preventing the hook phase/extending the skid phase artificially? Either by total sum or ratios?

Thanks in advance!

Your logic looks pretty good to me. For pin to PAP just remember that if you are trying to burn of tilt and rotation, use a longer pin for an asymmetrical layout. 4" is fairly short and can be used by almost any bowler. For 20* tilt with 80* rotation, Mo would almost always use at least 4 1/2" pin to PAP (burn off tilt/rotation) and then adjust longer to play a little straighter or to make the ball roll forward smoother (THS)


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 Post subject: Re: Layout Recommendation
 Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:20 am Post Number: #3 Post
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Adrenaline wrote:
Speed: 16.8 (Whole Lane Average)
Revs: 210 (Whole Lane Average)
Tilt: 15-20
Rotation: 70-75
For a Typical House Shot, with seemingly higher volumes.
Speed and revs need to be measured off the hand. Speed averaged from the entire lane can be estimated to +2 for off the hand, (18.8mph) RPM's on the other hand can't really be extrapolated from counting the total revolutions for the entire lane. It would be better to count the revolutions on the first 15' or the first second on the lane. To be Matched with 18.8 mph a bowler would need 400 rpm's, Thats hard to count without some good camera work. If you counted with the naked eye I agree with the speed dominance but the question is How speed dominant.

If I've read and understand the wiki correctly...

This makes him speed dominant, for an angle sum of 80*.
Tilt/Rotation lead me to believe I'm looking at 1:1 or 1:1.25 ratios, with heavier oil favoring the latter.
I'm still clueless to Pin to Pap, no matter how much I read, but based on previous examples from this forum my guesses are:

Symmetrical: 40x3x40
The Drilling Angle on a Symmetrical will be measure to the thumb hole and be much larger than trying to determine it from the angle ratios. Depending on PAP measurement it cold be as high as 90* or more. Or as low as 70* or less.
Without knowing the PAP I can't give an exact number But it will not be 40*

Asymmetrical: 35x4x45

Am I in the right ball park for this bowler?
You are familiar with this bowler and probably already judged that he is speed dominant by a lack of ball motion. Estimated specs only get you estimated totals. I would be more confident if I knew more accurate specs.

*** There is one wrench to throw in. This bowler who tends to loft the ball out about 5 feet, which leads to 1 bounce of the ball shortly after. Do you make any type of adjustments for this? Perhaps treat them as more speed dominant, since the ball isn't seeing friction as early as normal, preventing the hook phase/extending the skid phase artificially? Either by total sum or ratios?
If his PAP is determined from the first oil ring then this is all the adjustment you need.

Thanks in advance!

Comments in color above

What ball is being considered?
What ball and layout is he currently using?
From the description a Dull surface would be in order on just about anything for him on a heavily oiled house shot.
Has he tried sanding what he is currently using?

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Layout Recommendation
 Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:07 am Post Number: #4 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
What ball is being considered?
What ball and layout is he currently using?
From the description a Dull surface would be in order on just about anything for him on a heavily oiled house shot.
Has he tried sanding what he is currently using?


He's open to suggestions, I was trying to point him to a heavy oil, solid, strong Asym, such as the Roto Grip Halo, or anything along those lines that catches his eye. Asym for the exact reason you mentioned about Sym PSA ending 1/2" right of Thumb Center.

His current ball is a really old Brunswick Ultra Zone. I've tried a hot bath cleaning, I sanded it down to 500 with TruCut pads, and have a few other grits to try, but no luck. He's ready to get something new for next season, as he just got back into bowling, and his current layout is just a basic pin over bridge and he sees a decent amount of over/under and his ball reaction seems very speed sensitive, I'd like to get him something with a lot more consistent roll and shape, with a nice controlled arcing backend.

I measured his specs with video, by measuring time on the lane, calculating 60/2.4339 x3600 /5280 for the whole lane as per the wiki. If I do just the first 15 feet to the arrows, I get 18.018mph. That same time frame results in 2.5 revolutions on average. (harder to read due to the loft/bounce and poor camera footage on my part, but close enough.)
I used the Wiki in combination the Storm Conversion Chart for 'total lane time' vs 'revolution'.
Total Lane time of 2.4 with 8-9 rotations. 8 = 200 9 =225, so I called it 210RPM.
2.5 revolutions in .48 seconds is... uh... 5.208 per second, 312RPM off the hand?

His PAP was measured at 4 7/8 Over and 3/4 Up based on his P2 Balance Hole. However when I marked it with tape, it wasn't the center of his spin point, so it's either moved or he was just off that day. When we go to the PSO I'll have him measure/update it out with an actual Armadillo before I lay out the ball. On video his PAP appeared to more realistically be 4 over and .25 up, but I digress.

Off the Hand:
Speed - 18.018MPH
Revs - 312RPM
Tilt - 15-20*
Rotation - 70-75*


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 Post subject: Re: Layout Recommendation
 Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:50 am Post Number: #5 Post
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On something like the Halo I would go 45-4-45 pin in the ring finger for that smooth arcing shape you are look for him to get.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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