Layout Recommendation

Which layout is right for me?

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Adrenaline
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Posts: 212
Joined: January 28th, 2010, 10:22 am
Positive Axis Point: 5>1^
Speed: 15.5
Rev Rate: 230
Axis Tilt: 10
Axis Rotation: 70
Medium Oil Ball: Pink Panther
Location: Sacramento, CA

Layout Recommendation

Post by Adrenaline » June 3rd, 2019, 6:34 am

Speed: 16.8 (Whole Lane Average)
Revs: 210 (Whole Lane Average)
Tilt: 15-20
Rotation: 70-75
For a Typical House Shot, with seemingly higher volumes.

If I've read and understand the wiki correctly...

This makes him speed dominant, for an angle sum of 80*.
Tilt/Rotation lead me to believe I'm looking at 1:1 or 1:1.25 ratios, with heavier oil favoring the latter.
I'm still clueless to Pin to Pap, no matter how much I read, but based on previous examples from this forum my guesses are:

Symmetrical: 40x3x40
Asymmetrical: 35x4x45

Am I in the right ball park for this bowler?

*** There is one wrench to throw in. This bowler who tends to loft the ball out about 5 feet, which leads to 1 bounce of the ball shortly after. Do you make any type of adjustments for this? Perhaps treat them as more speed dominant, since the ball isn't seeing friction as early as normal, preventing the hook phase/extending the skid phase artificially? Either by total sum or ratios?

Thanks in advance!

elgavachon
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Re: Layout Recommendation

Post by elgavachon » June 3rd, 2019, 4:02 pm

Adrenaline wrote:Speed: 16.8 (Whole Lane Average)
Revs: 210 (Whole Lane Average)
Tilt: 15-20
Rotation: 70-75
For a Typical House Shot, with seemingly higher volumes.

If I've read and understand the wiki correctly...

This makes him speed dominant, for an angle sum of 80*.
Tilt/Rotation lead me to believe I'm looking at 1:1 or 1:1.25 ratios, with heavier oil favoring the latter.
I'm still clueless to Pin to Pap, no matter how much I read, but based on previous examples from this forum my guesses are:

Symmetrical: 40x3x40
Asymmetrical: 35x4x45

Am I in the right ball park for this bowler?

*** There is one wrench to throw in. This bowler who tends to loft the ball out about 5 feet, which leads to 1 bounce of the ball shortly after. Do you make any type of adjustments for this? Perhaps treat them as more speed dominant, since the ball isn't seeing friction as early as normal, preventing the hook phase/extending the skid phase artificially? Either by total sum or ratios?

Thanks in advance!
Your logic looks pretty good to me. For pin to PAP just remember that if you are trying to burn of tilt and rotation, use a longer pin for an asymmetrical layout. 4" is fairly short and can be used by almost any bowler. For 20* tilt with 80* rotation, Mo would almost always use at least 4 1/2" pin to PAP (burn off tilt/rotation) and then adjust longer to play a little straighter or to make the ball roll forward smoother (THS)

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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Recommendation

Post by EricHartwell » June 4th, 2019, 12:20 am

Adrenaline wrote:Speed: 16.8 (Whole Lane Average)
Revs: 210 (Whole Lane Average)
Tilt: 15-20
Rotation: 70-75
For a Typical House Shot, with seemingly higher volumes.
Speed and revs need to be measured off the hand. Speed averaged from the entire lane can be estimated to +2 for off the hand, (18.8mph) RPM's on the other hand can't really be extrapolated from counting the total revolutions for the entire lane. It would be better to count the revolutions on the first 15' or the first second on the lane. To be Matched with 18.8 mph a bowler would need 400 rpm's, Thats hard to count without some good camera work. If you counted with the naked eye I agree with the speed dominance but the question is How speed dominant.

If I've read and understand the wiki correctly...

This makes him speed dominant, for an angle sum of 80*.
Tilt/Rotation lead me to believe I'm looking at 1:1 or 1:1.25 ratios, with heavier oil favoring the latter.
I'm still clueless to Pin to Pap, no matter how much I read, but based on previous examples from this forum my guesses are:

Symmetrical: 40x3x40
The Drilling Angle on a Symmetrical will be measure to the thumb hole and be much larger than trying to determine it from the angle ratios. Depending on PAP measurement it cold be as high as 90* or more. Or as low as 70* or less.
Without knowing the PAP I can't give an exact number But it will not be 40*

Asymmetrical: 35x4x45

Am I in the right ball park for this bowler?
You are familiar with this bowler and probably already judged that he is speed dominant by a lack of ball motion. Estimated specs only get you estimated totals. I would be more confident if I knew more accurate specs.

*** There is one wrench to throw in. This bowler who tends to loft the ball out about 5 feet, which leads to 1 bounce of the ball shortly after. Do you make any type of adjustments for this? Perhaps treat them as more speed dominant, since the ball isn't seeing friction as early as normal, preventing the hook phase/extending the skid phase artificially? Either by total sum or ratios?
If his PAP is determined from the first oil ring then this is all the adjustment you need.

Thanks in advance!
Comments in color above

What ball is being considered?
What ball and layout is he currently using?
From the description a Dull surface would be in order on just about anything for him on a heavily oiled house shot.
Has he tried sanding what he is currently using?
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Adrenaline
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Posts: 212
Joined: January 28th, 2010, 10:22 am
Positive Axis Point: 5>1^
Speed: 15.5
Rev Rate: 230
Axis Tilt: 10
Axis Rotation: 70
Medium Oil Ball: Pink Panther
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: Layout Recommendation

Post by Adrenaline » June 4th, 2019, 2:07 am

EricHartwell wrote: What ball is being considered?
What ball and layout is he currently using?
From the description a Dull surface would be in order on just about anything for him on a heavily oiled house shot.
Has he tried sanding what he is currently using?
He's open to suggestions, I was trying to point him to a heavy oil, solid, strong Asym, such as the Roto Grip Halo, or anything along those lines that catches his eye. Asym for the exact reason you mentioned about Sym PSA ending 1/2" right of Thumb Center.

His current ball is a really old Brunswick Ultra Zone. I've tried a hot bath cleaning, I sanded it down to 500 with TruCut pads, and have a few other grits to try, but no luck. He's ready to get something new for next season, as he just got back into bowling, and his current layout is just a basic pin over bridge and he sees a decent amount of over/under and his ball reaction seems very speed sensitive, I'd like to get him something with a lot more consistent roll and shape, with a nice controlled arcing backend.

I measured his specs with video, by measuring time on the lane, calculating 60/2.4339 x3600 /5280 for the whole lane as per the wiki. If I do just the first 15 feet to the arrows, I get 18.018mph. That same time frame results in 2.5 revolutions on average. (harder to read due to the loft/bounce and poor camera footage on my part, but close enough.)
I used the Wiki in combination the Storm Conversion Chart for 'total lane time' vs 'revolution'.
Total Lane time of 2.4 with 8-9 rotations. 8 = 200 9 =225, so I called it 210RPM.
2.5 revolutions in .48 seconds is... uh... 5.208 per second, 312RPM off the hand?

His PAP was measured at 4 7/8 Over and 3/4 Up based on his P2 Balance Hole. However when I marked it with tape, it wasn't the center of his spin point, so it's either moved or he was just off that day. When we go to the PSO I'll have him measure/update it out with an actual Armadillo before I lay out the ball. On video his PAP appeared to more realistically be 4 over and .25 up, but I digress.

Off the Hand:
Speed - 18.018MPH
Revs - 312RPM
Tilt - 15-20*
Rotation - 70-75*

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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Recommendation

Post by EricHartwell » June 4th, 2019, 2:50 am

On something like the Halo I would go 45-4-45 pin in the ring finger for that smooth arcing shape you are look for him to get.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

andrewstack23
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Re: Layout Recommendation

Post by andrewstack23 » August 29th, 2019, 3:04 pm

ball speed 15.90-19.34 mph
rev rate 479

rotation 45* to 90*
tilt 4*
what kind of layout would i need to hook it more because i don't hook it all that much my normal line is about 3rd arrow to 5 board and 19.34 has been my highest two handed ball speed and i'm two handed

elgavachon
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Re: Layout Recommendation

Post by elgavachon » August 29th, 2019, 7:53 pm

andrewstack23 wrote:ball speed 15.90-19.34 mph
rev rate 479

rotation 45* to 90*
tilt 4*
what kind of layout would i need to hook it more because i don't hook it all that much my normal line is about 3rd arrow to 5 board and 19.34 has been my highest two handed ball speed and i'm two handed
Mo says for a 2 hander to hook it, you should go with 2 1/2" to 4" pin to PAP. With 4* of tilt, you do not want to go too long on an asymmetrical pin to PAP or the ball will lose tilt and face up at the arrows. With an asymmetrical ball, you can move the PSA closer to the PAP for earlier hook (which would be my preferred method. To get more hook than you are getting, we would need to know what you are throwing and the layouts. For most 2 handers a 3 3/4" pin to PAP with a 45# VAL angle and a 4" PSA to PAP would be a very strong layout on an asymmetrical ball.

44boyd
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Re: Layout Recommendation

Post by 44boyd » August 30th, 2019, 2:29 am

I thought Mo stated no thumbs should avoid 2.5 to 4 inches? More hook, 4.5 to 5.5 and 2.5 to 1 for low flare?
Stacy

elgavachon
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Re: Layout Recommendation

Post by elgavachon » August 30th, 2019, 7:30 am

44boyd wrote:I thought Mo stated no thumbs should avoid 2.5 to 4 inches? More hook, 4.5 to 5.5 and 2.5 to 1 for low flare?
In symmetrical balls the 4.5 to 5.5 would be low flare. Mo said to avoid 2.5 to 4 inches because under most circumstances a no thumb bowler does not need that much motion (they are trying to skid the ball farther). Low tilt does not want to use long pins in asymmetrical balls so the 4.5 to 5.5 inches would be for symmetrical only.

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Re: Layout Recommendation

Post by andrewstack23 » August 31st, 2019, 11:00 pm

this is what vls gave me
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