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 Post subject: Very low DA / lower sum layouts
 Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 1:47 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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I dug out an Absolute Inferno with a MB kicked left...way left. Higher TW, so not a ton of flexibility since I'm ditching weight holes now to get used to it.

Any reasonable layout is going to have a drill angle in the 20-35 degree range. My question is what can I expect from a 60 sum with a DA in the 20-30 range. I'm actually tickling the idea of a 20 x 4 x 40. I figure it would be silly smooth, but might be great on shorter/mid length sport shots with some volume to tame down the front to back motion.

Am I dead wrong here?

Basically, I've got a 2nd that I'd like to play with and my options are limited with the MB/TW combo.

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 Post subject: Re: Very low DA / lower sum layouts
 Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 2:19 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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Quote:
I dug out an Absolute Inferno with a MB kicked left...way left. Higher TW, so not a ton of flexibility since I'm ditching weight holes now to get used to it.


Remember, with the new balance regs you're allowed 3 oz of imbalance in all directions. High top weight isn't much of a problem as long as you don't want a balance hole. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Very low DA / lower sum layouts
 Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 4:03 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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JohnP wrote:

Remember, with the new balance regs you're allowed 3 oz of imbalance in all directions. High top weight isn't much of a problem as long as you don't want a balance hole. -- JohnP


Ball in question has over 4 oz. of TW. Pretty much every layout I wanted to try was going to require a hole.

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We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Very low DA / lower sum layouts
 Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 7:57 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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Did you actually weigh the ball with the layout drawn on it? If not, draw the layout you're interested in on the surface, then check the weights on a dodo scale. They will be very close to what they'll be after the ball is drilled, except for top weight, and you have some control of that by the depth you drill the holes. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Very low DA / lower sum layouts
 Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 8:08 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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Mongo wrote:
I dug out an Absolute Inferno with a MB kicked left...way left.


Absolute Inferno is a symmetrical.

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 Post subject: Re: Very low DA / lower sum layouts
 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 1:53 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

Absolute Inferno is a symmetrical.



It is. Whoops....I meant Absolute Nirvana.

Anyway, I just said screw it and punched it up to see what a low (and I mean low) sum would look like.

Ended up 30 x 4 x 20. The results shocked me. I did not expect this kind of recovery. I was hoping for hook at my feet and roll, I got the opposite. This was on a somewhat fresh house shot.

Skip to 0:15 to avoid me getting things set up (I lost Coaches' Eye and looking for another video editor)


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We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Very low DA / lower sum layouts
 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 2:49 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Mongo wrote:
Ended up 30 x 4 x 20. The results shocked me. I did not expect this kind of recovery. I was hoping for hook at my feet and roll, I got the opposite. This was on a somewhat fresh house shot.

The line you were playing was through the puddle in the middle. Essentially playing the longest, heaviest part of the pattern. Try to roll it up the outside dry boards and you would have had it hook at your feet.

I have rolled a low sum layout on a Strong Asym and it was imperative I kept my speed up, even playing deep inside. The faster I was able to throw it the better/stronger the reaction on the backend was. It proved to me that lower totals for more oil or speed dominance really worked.

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 Post subject: Re: Very low DA / lower sum layouts
 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 3:52 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
The line you were playing was through the puddle in the middle. Essentially playing the longest, heaviest part of the pattern. Try to roll it up the outside dry boards and you would have had it hook at your feet.

I have rolled a low sum layout on a Strong Asym and it was imperative I kept my speed up, even playing deep inside. The faster I was able to throw it the better/stronger the reaction on the backend was. It proved to me that lower totals for more oil or speed dominance really worked.



Well....I did try this. :)


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We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Very low DA / lower sum layouts
 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 4:15 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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That shot definitely shows the forgiveness of a house shot.
I doubt a weaker ball/layout would have made it back to the pocket.

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 Post subject: Re: Very low DA / lower sum layouts
 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 5:02 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
That shot definitely shows the forgiveness of a house shot.
I doubt a weaker ball/layout would have made it back to the pocket.


It's a standard house shot, but there are some surface issues.

Usually anything throw with that sharp of an angle burns up and buckets....or worse. I was shocked that it made the corner. This place doesn't like big angles and is what I fight there. I've got the rev rate to hook it, but anytime I swing it over 10 boards, I can't maintain carry because the ball reads the mids so hard

Getting back to this sum/ball combo and my genuine surprise with the reaction I got out of it.

This Absolute Nirvana was fresh out of the box (1000 grit) with a very low sum. When I tried this, I fully expected it to go 40 feet, check up, and go pretty much bucket at best. Instead the ball went 2-3 feet further and made the corner way more than I thought it would.

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We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Very low DA / lower sum layouts
 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 7:45 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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Mongo wrote:
I fully expected it to go 40 feet, check up, and go pretty much bucket at best.

I like what you have done with your tilt and rotation. Will give you a lot more versatility in layouts.
I like what Eric said about you hitting the heavy oil on the lanes.

The best way to get (Mid-lane roll) is to drill a ball like Mav does for sport patterns (lower ratio with a long pin to PAP on an asymmetrical ball.
What you have is what Mo calls totally strong ( higher ratio with a pin to PAP to cover boards and low angle sums)

This layout is more like Mo's 45* 4 1/2 25* which he used to call totally strong (he used it a lot)


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 Post subject: Re: Very low DA / lower sum layouts
 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 8:02 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
I like what you have done with your tilt and rotation. Will give you a lot more versatility in layouts.


Thank you, sir. I'm still working on everything. Turn 50 next year and hoping to hit a few PBA50 stops. I knew that 75+ degree rotation wasn't going to do me any favors out there.

elgavachon wrote:
I like what Eric said about you hitting the heavy oil on the lanes.

The best way to get (Mid-lane roll) is to drill a ball like Mav does for sport patterns (lower ratio with a long pin to PAP on an asymmetrical ball.
What you have is what Mo calls totally strong ( higher ratio with a pin to PAP to cover boards and low angle sums)

This layout is more like Mo's 45* 4 1/2 25* which he used to call totally strong (he used it a lot


So, if I'm looking for something to tone down front/back motion, maybe something like 60 x 5 1/2 x 60 in an asym (1:1 ratio, long pin)?

I also think I need to start going with more surface across the board. Most of my equipment is 2000+. About time to break out the 500 and 1000 pads to get this stuff to slow down and read.

I'm going to dabble with more urethane, too. For me to be successful, I need to find a combination of layouts that let me still be aggressive, but able to keep the ball more in front of me. As a lefty, big angles never really play on flatter shots, so I need to really quit looking for big reactions and finding equipment that allows me to keep the ball in front of me.

Plus, let's be honest, I like drilling stuff. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Very low DA / lower sum layouts
 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 8:32 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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Mongo wrote:
So, if I'm looking for something to tone down front/back motion, maybe something like 60 x 5 1/2 x 60 in an asym (1:1 ratio, long pin)?

I think that layout will be very long (and pin to PAP does not fit the layout) You are trying to make ball go long with angles, but pin to PAP is trying to make it roll up soon.

Most people who use surface scanners will tell you that the ball will change in a very short time (frames), so I would prefer layouts for what you are looking for rather than surface (just me).

Also depends on if you are after house shots. Quote from Mo: Depends on your tilt. High tilt players should use the long pin layout and the low tilt players should use the control layouts for asyms. for THS patterns. You have raised your tilt, but you are not a high tilt player.

For mid-lane roll on sport, I would try something like 15* 4 3/4 45*


Last edited by elgavachon on Sun May 19, 2019 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Very low DA / lower sum layouts
 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 8:43 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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That was taken from: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1342&p=10862&hilit=roll#p10862

also Paul explained Mo's reasoning for the layout in post #6. You are not a 33* tilt player, but you are not looking for a house shot layout either. This is more like Mav's layouts for sport shot (except with a shorter pin to PAP ) which if you are after mid-lane roll, I think will work for more than just one game. Unless you have a lot of tilt, or moving lanes to fresh and playing a new part of the lane than the last bowlers on that pair, very long pin to PAP distances will not give you the fresh reaction for too many games.


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 Post subject: Re: Very low DA / lower sum layouts
 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 11:01 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
I think that layout will be very long (and pin to PAP does not fit the layout) You are trying to make ball go long with angles, but pin to PAP is trying to make it roll up soon.

Most people who use surface scanners will tell you that the ball will change in a very short time (frames), so I would prefer layouts for what you are looking for rather than surface (just me).

Also depends on if you are after house shots. Quote from Mo: Depends on your tilt. High tilt players should use the long pin layout and the low tilt players should use the control layouts for asyms. for THS patterns. You have raised your tilt, but you are not a high tilt player.



My tilt is still maybe 10-12 degrees tops. Got my rotation down to 50-55, that that has helped.

The big thing is that I throw it better when I can just let go with my release, which puts me in the 400-425 range. With this combo, it's harder to keep the ball as in front of me as much as I like to. Since most LH transition is front to back, I need something super calm early, then be able to up the length as they blend out. The challenge I've had for a while is finding a solid progression in my bag that I'm comfortable with.

Quote:
For mid-lane roll on sport, I would try something like 15* 4 3/4 45*


I've got a Dragon that's actually pretty close to those numbers (it was a 2nd, MB way left) at 20 x 4 x 45. It's very rolly and will be going with me to USBCs. For sport, I'd love to find a weaker asym with a similar motion, but for lower volumes/rougher surfaces.

I'm probably going to start a very involved/self-centered thread in the coaching section breaking down everything. I get on the struggle bus way too often in tournaments and I think it's about equipment choices/lane play rather than my ability to throw the ball. I'm not all world, but I'm putting up horrible performances because I box myself into playing lanes wrong or trying to do things I can't rather than just throw it like I know how to.

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