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 Post subject: Completely Lost With Layouts...
 Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 12:47 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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I have been bowling for about 3-4 years. My average has stayed relatively the same with slight increases every year from around 210-212 average the first year to around 218-223 averages the last couple years. Although my mental and physical game has improved, I am still being severely handicapped by my inability to find any layouts that work consistently for me.

I throw from behind the ball a lot and many people think I do not have my thumb in the ball (although I do, but it is only about half-way in). I throw 16 lb ball around 16.5 speed so maybe slightly above avg speed and with above avg revs as well. I squeeze the ball with my hand while I throw. I have used equipment made for 3/4 track players and some of it works very well and some balls with the same layout do nothing. I have used lefty drilled equipment (I'm right handed) and was able to outhook them with their own ball easily. And other lefty layouts do nothing. I track VERY high, just to the left of my middle finger and just to the left of my thumb hole.

Because of my very high track I copied a full roller layout from Tom Smallwood on his Katana Slash. This layout has worked very well for me but the ball tracks laterally through my fingers. I'm interested in drilling more balls with the full roller layout but am not sure if I should be tracking this way or how to keep adjusting the full roller drilling to strengthen/weaken the ball.

I have used a layout from Mo for high tracking players (http://www.strikeitrichproshop.com/basic-ball-layouts) to use for heavy forward roll and in heavy oil and the ball wont even slightly hook for me. What I have figured out is that standard layouts are at best inconsistent for me but am lost at what to do now. My benchmark ball is slightly stronger than neutral lefty drilled ball. My main tournament ball for anything over 38' is a full roller ball. Anything and everything works and at the same time nothing seems to work. Any help is appreciated (sorry for the extremely long post)


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 Post subject: Re: Completely Lost With Layouts...
 Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 4:18 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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Welcome to BowlingChat

While you description of your bowling style paints a picture, more specific information is needed to properly determine layouts for you.

Check out his link for the needed information.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=373

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
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 Post subject: Re: Completely Lost With Layouts...
 Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 8:55 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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I can sympathize with your frustrations. I also track high, and have been working on adding tilt and moving my track away from fingers and thumb. It's been fairly successful through practice, getting physically stronger, experimenting with span/pitches.

My experience is that with your low tilt (and I'm assuming) fairly low rotation, your ball is reading friction early, losing energy and behaving inconsistently. Layouts that produce more length may help. Matching up surface. Having more versatility with hand position at release.

Personally, I would stay away from the full roller layouts - because I don't ever want to roll over the fingers or thumb. When it happens, the ball rolls very inconsistently for me. Thump, thump, thump. I would be wary of the midlane layouts. You probably don't need help reading the midlane, unless it's higher volume. I'd use more surface.

Stay on top of transition, make sure you're seeing wet oil rings on the ball and work on hand positions to increase tilt and versatility. Provide accurate stats as Eric has asked for and I'm sure you'll get some good advice regarding layouts.

I recently drilled some syms using Mo's latest guidelines for low tilt bowlers and love the results. This means shorter pin to PAP than I'm used to with smaller VAL angles. The new shape (compared to my control layouts) takes a little getting used to, but the carry has been great.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Completely Lost With Layouts...
 Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 9:53 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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I appreciate any help and input guys. It looks as though I bowl with no thumb so I've started looking into different layouts for thumbless bowlers as well. I usually swing the ball a little more and go about 20-8 on a house/league shot, this was simply to get on video my release. I have equipment that works right now and as I've said I'm a 220+ on league and most tournaments and ~210 on sport shots but I want to be able to buy something new and know what layout is going to work and what won't because I want to be 220-225+ on sport shots as my goal.


Last edited by JBAOKWE on Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Completely Lost With Layouts...
 Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 10:05 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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stevespo wrote:
Personally, I would stay away from the full roller layouts - because I don't ever want to roll over the fingers or thumb. When it happens, the ball rolls very inconsistently for me. Thump, thump, thump. I would be wary of the midlane layouts.


Appreciate the response, this is why it has been weird for me because my full roller does track right over the fingers but it is VERY consistent even at Nationals it was able to cut through the oil and keep a consistent break point to stay around 190s every game. If I go over my thumb hole with any ball I get that crazy inconsistency but haven't with the FRoller layout and going through fingers for some reason. I'm also wondering where I would move the layout around to move my track right above the fingers or so it wont track through my fingers... Would the only way to figure this out just experiment on a bunch of balls and layouts? This is the layout I copied for my ball.
https://twitter.com/radicalbowling/status/967863177328451586


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 Post subject: Re: Completely Lost With Layouts...
 Posted: Sun May 12, 2019 1:46 am Post Number: #6 Post
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If you get your stats Eric can give you layouts that shouldn’t track over holes

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 Post subject: Re: Completely Lost With Layouts...
 Posted: Sun May 12, 2019 8:57 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Rolling over the fingers is definitely not the end of the world. Some layouts will do that for me, and I have a thumbless teammate who always tracks over the fingers. Rolling over the thumb has been a real reaction killer for me, tho.

What type of ball do you have the full roller on? Is it a low flaring layout, and where is the bowtie? I really like the low flare layouts on weaker sym cores with medium/strong covers. Pin in/over ring finger, 75x5x50 or so. I do use some stronger asyms, but like the shape and smoother reaction the syms give me. Just my 2 cents.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Completely Lost With Layouts...
 Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 2:05 am Post Number: #8 Post
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Honestly I've only been really getting mentally into bowling the last 4-5 months so a lot of the stuff I will have more answers for when I video myself tomorrow bowling to get all the stats like tilt and revs and stuff. I've looked up how to do it but have never figured it out for my own shot.

I don't even know where my bowtie is because all it really does is show a small ~2 inch flare right to the side of my ring finger. I'm also not sure if it is a high flaring layout or not because it is full roller, I don't know if the link I put of the picture can help you figure out if it is high flaring or not? My FR ball is a Brunswick Intrigue Fortera so it is a high flaring Asym ball. But no equipment really flares much for me the way I throw or maybe it is the layouts.

If this helps at all, I normally track just to the left of my middle finger and just to the left of my thumb. When I tried this layout (the picture attached) my track changed to further left away from the finger holes but going to the right and into my thumb hole. And that ball does not move at all. Was going to try keeping the pin to the right and maybe a little higher and moving PSA closer to thumb. I don't mind experimenting but it is getting costly the more I do it.

Forgive me for my lack of knowledge, I am trying to get all of the stats and stuff to make it easier.


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 Post subject: Re: Completely Lost With Layouts...
 Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 2:24 am Post Number: #9 Post
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A full roller track starts left the middle finger and right of the thumbhole and with conventional layouts it flares over both holes. The full roller layout causes the track to flare counter-clockwise, so it will flare away from both the middle finger and thumb.

Using a full roller layout for a high 3/4 roller may result in the track flaring over the thumbhole.

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 Post subject: Re: Completely Lost With Layouts...
 Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 9:02 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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JBAOKWE wrote:
Honestly I've only been really getting mentally into bowling the last 4-5 months so a lot of the stuff I will have more answers for when I video myself tomorrow bowling to get all the stats like tilt and revs and stuff. I've looked up how to do it but have never figured it out for my own shot.

I don't even know where my bowtie is because all it really does is show a small ~2 inch flare right to the side of my ring finger. I'm also not sure if it is a high flaring layout or not because it is full roller, I don't know if the link I put of the picture can help you figure out if it is high flaring or not? My FR ball is a Brunswick Intrigue Fortera so it is a high flaring Asym ball. But no equipment really flares much for me the way I throw or maybe it is the layouts.

If this helps at all, I normally track just to the left of my middle finger and just to the left of my thumb. When I tried this layout (the picture attached) my track changed to further left away from the finger holes but going to the right and into my thumb hole. And that ball does not move at all. Was going to try keeping the pin to the right and maybe a little higher and moving PSA closer to thumb. I don't mind experimenting but it is getting costly the more I do it.

Forgive me for my lack of knowledge, I am trying to get all of the stats and stuff to make it easier.

Knowing your release specs Speed off the hand, RPM's off the hand, Rotation, Tilt and PAP is the key to not wasting time and money trying to get good, predictable ball reactions.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=373

What ball or balls are you currently using?
Matching up specific balls to layouts also needs to be considered.

The Layout you had the attachment for is a Strong High flaring layout. This type of layout will flare in the air and start the oil lines further away from your grip. What this does is change the PAP location for determining high flaring layouts.

Find your PAP location then work from there figuring out your release specs by rolling a ball with the PAP marked.

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Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Completely Lost With Layouts...
 Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:08 am Post Number: #11 Post
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So the full roller layouts (Rad. Conspiracy & Fortera Intrigue) definitely have betrayed me when I get into more volumes of oil. The oil over the fingers has caused it I think to not be able to create any breakpoint at all. I never had issues in oil on other layouts before these.

I need to get my tilt and rotation still.. but some specs I have figured are
Speed - 2.35 seconds (~ 17.8mph)
Revs - 480
PAP - 7 1/2 - 1 1/8 up

The only regular drilled ball (Track 930T - older but lightly used) I have that fits into a decent pin to pap range is the aggressive layout for high track players and it is 80 x 3 1/2 x 65. And this ball BARELY moves for me.
My benchmark ball (Columbia Swerve FX) is slightly left handed drilled and hooks much more and it is 115 x 6 5/8 x 40.

I was told a good layout for me would be 60 x 4" x 35. So any other suggestions?
And anyone have ideas why the "aggressive layout" is so weak for me?


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 Post subject: Re: Completely Lost With Layouts...
 Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:44 am Post Number: #12 Post
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Here are some specs:

Right Handed
Speed - 2.35 seconds from hand to pins (~ 17.8mph)
Revs - 480
PAP - 7 1/2 - 1 1/8 up, from center grip
Axis Rotation - 60 degrees
Axis Tilt - (-10)
Even (not speed or rev dominant)

Mostly synthetic lanes. Need layouts for early reading, mid lane movement, and for long and strong motion.

Any help is appreciated..


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 Post subject: Re: Completely Lost With Layouts...
 Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:09 am Post Number: #13 Post
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JBAOKWE wrote:
Here are some specs:

Right Handed
Speed - 2.35 seconds from hand to pins (~ 17.8mph)
Revs - 480
PAP - 7 1/2 - 1 1/8 up, from center grip
Axis Rotation - 60 degrees
Axis Tilt - (-10)
Even (not speed or rev dominant)

Mostly synthetic lanes. Need layouts for early reading, mid lane movement, and for long and strong motion.

Any help is appreciated..

Looks like you are an over-rolled full roller. Here is the thread for you to learn about it.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4635


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 Post subject: Re: Completely Lost With Layouts...
 Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:13 am Post Number: #14 Post
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JBAOKWE wrote:
Here are some specs:

Right Handed
Speed - 2.35 seconds from hand to pins (~ 17.8mph)
Revs - 480
PAP - 7 1/2 - 1 1/8 up, from center grip
Axis Rotation - 60 degrees
Axis Tilt - (-10)
Even (not speed or rev dominant)

Mostly synthetic lanes. Need layouts for early reading, mid lane movement, and for long and strong motion.

Any help is appreciated..

This is a Prime example of what it called an Over-Rolled Full Roller.

There are only a few layouts that will be flare safe. Kind of like the classic full rollers, but different.
Using surface prep is more important to tune ball roll in these cases.

I will figure out a good couple of layouts for you to work with when I have a fresh mind.

Please post video of your ball roll with your PAP marked.
There is such little documentation of the negative tilt bowler and I see more and more of them these days. Just no video to study. The ones I see are not using drillings that optimize their ball roll at all.
Once i give you some layouts to work with follow up video would be awesome as well.

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Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


Last edited by EricHartwell on Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Completely Lost With Layouts...
 Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:18 am Post Number: #15 Post
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I really appreciate the help. Thank you guys


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 Post subject: Re: Completely Lost With Layouts...
 Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:36 am Post Number: #16 Post
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Mo says all the rules still apply (Val Angle/ Drilling Angle/ Pin to PAP distance) ;Therefore, you can use all the layouts that fit your specs. The easiest way that I have found is to layout the ball as if you were a lefthander. Use you horizontal and vertical measurements, but before you add lines for thumb and fingers, turn the ball upside down (this will put the fingers up and thumb down, with the pin and PSA to the right of the center of grip. Use the ratios and layouts which fit you specs. It is much easier to drill for the over-rolled full roller now with the 3 oz rule in effect for all sides of the ball.

It will look like ball in post #13 of the thread I gave you: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4635


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 Post subject: Re: Completely Lost With Layouts...
 Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:03 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
Mo says all the rules still apply (Val Angle/ Drilling Angle/ Pin to PAP distance) ;Therefore, you can use all the layouts that fit your specs. The easiest way that I have found is to layout the ball as if you were a lefthander. Use you horizontal and vertical measurements, but before you add lines for thumb and fingers, turn the ball upside down (this will put the fingers up and thumb down, with the pin and PSA to the right of the center of grip. Use the ratios and layouts which fit you specs. It is much easier to drill for the over-rolled full roller now with the 3 oz rule in effect for all sides of the ball.

It will look like ball in post #13 of the thread I gave you: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4635


So I would use my specs but drill it as a lefty with the same specs, correct? Then flip it. So it would look something like this picture, but the PSA and pin would be in each other's spot.


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 Post subject: Re: Completely Lost With Layouts...
 Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:35 pm Post Number: #18 Post
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JBAOKWE wrote:
Here are some specs:

Right Handed
Speed - 2.35 seconds from hand to pins (~ 17.8mph)
Revs - 480
PAP - 7 1/2 - 1 1/8 up, from center grip
Axis Rotation - 60 degrees
Axis Tilt - (-10)
Even (not speed or rev dominant)

Mostly synthetic lanes. Need layouts for early reading, mid lane movement, and for long and strong motion.

Any help is appreciated..

Sweetspot 110* Total, 2:1 Ratio

Asymmetrical Layouts
Totally Strong ............. 65-4.5-25
Midlane ..................... 55-4-35
Benchmark ................ 75-4-35
Long and strong ......... 90-3.75-35
Control ...................... 75-3.5-55
low flare .................... 90-2-35

Symmetrical Layouts
Benchmartk ............... xx-4.25-30
Control ...................... xx-4.5-50
low flare .................... xx-5-30

Utilize elgavachon's explaination to apply these layouts.
They are going to look like upside down left handed layouts.

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Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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